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Thread: The Price is Right

  1. #31
    Don G's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by popperonahead View Post
    There is no fundamental right in the US Constitution to "adequate health insurance".

    And I feel the current health care reform is a power grab and a sham and will be repealed come 2012. But, I've been wrong before.
    popper, I sure hope you are right..
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  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by LBM View Post
    "There is no right to healthcare

    The United States was founded with the declaration that all men have the right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” The Founders recognized that all men have a moral right to be free from the coercion of others, as long as they allow others the same freedom. They believed that rights do not impose a positive obligation on others, but only the negative obligation to restrain from the initiation of force.

    The claim that there is a “right to healthcare” violates the principle of individual rights because it requires that the liberty of doctors and the property of taxpayers be violated to provide for others. When the New Deal and Great Society programs forced doctors and taxpayers to become sacrificial offerings to the “common good”, the current “healthcare crisis” was born.

    The myth of “free” healthcare

    It is a common belief that when government provides something, it is free or cheap. But politicians cannot create wealth – they can only redistribute it. Money for all government spending comes from business – whether by entrepreneurial investment, the wages of patients, or taxes.

    Whether by price controls of outright nationalization, when governments make prices artificially low, demand skyrockets, and shortages result. Politicians respond by passing ever more regulations to control costs. These regulations stifle innovation, drive up costs, and force healthcare providers out of business. The end result is to replace capitalism, the greatest wealth-generating system known to man, with an onerous system of central planning.

    Capitalism cannot guarantee that all our medical needs will be provided for – no system can do that. But it does give entrepreneurs the incentive to compete to provide the best possible service they can. Centralized socialized systems have no incentive to improve service or to try bold new techniques. Politicians can force prices to be artificially low, but they cannot lower costs – they can only drive doctors, hospitals, and drug companies out of business.

    The victims of “universal” healthcare

    The waiting time for treatment in Canada varies from 14 to 30 weeks. Waiting lists for diagnostic procedures range from two to 24 weeks. Some patients die while waiting for treatment. To stop sick people from circumventing the “free” system, the government of British Columbia enacted Bill 82 in 2003, which makes it illegal to pay for private surgery. Patients waiting for critical procedures are now forced to seek procedures in the U.S. and doctors are abandoning Canada in droves. Cleveland, Ohio is now Canada’s hip-replacement center. Ontario is turning nurses into doctors to replace some of the 10,000 doctors who left Canada in the 1990’s. 1 2

    What will patients do when it is illegal to seek private medical treatment in the U.S.? Politicians are already working towards that goal. State and federal regulation impose onerous regulations which forbid insurance companies from offering services such as basic coverage for emergencies by requiring coverage of many types of procedures. Medicare forces doctors to follow 130,000 pages of regulations. Critics often attack the “capitalist” nature of American health care system. The reality is that the government now pays for 50% of health care, and closely regulates the rest.

    Healthcare is only affordable under capitalism

    If a society is not wealthy enough to afford healthcare, health socialism will not make it richer. Cuba, a poster child of socialist healthcare schemes, spends $229 on healthcare per person each year, while the U.S. spends $ 6,096.3 Premium services are available only to paying foreigners, while natives must bribe doctors for timely treatment and bring their own towels, bed sheets, soap, food, and even sutures.4

    A government can decide to replace individual choice with state-mandated decisions of what goods and services are more important for the “common good.” But it can only spend on one area at the expense of another. If Cubans are not totally deprived of medical treatment, it can only be at the expense of all other goods. A doctor’s salary in Cuba is 1.5 times the median at $15-20 per month. 5 A telling sign of their deprivation is the Cuban suicide rate, which is the highest in Latin America and among the highest in world. Cubans in Miami on the other hand, kill themselves less often than other Miamians.6 When they risk their lives in leaky boats to escape to the U.S., the right to make their own decisions regarding their health is among the freedoms they hope to gain.

    References:

    1. “Free Health Care in Canada” by Walter Williams
    2. “Do We Want Socialized Medicine?” by Walter Williams
    3. Reuters: Health care in Cuba more complicated than on SiCKO
    4. BBC: Keeping Cuba Healthy by John Harris
    5. “An Evaluation of Four Decades of Cuban Healthcare” by Felipe Eduardo Sixto (PDF)
    6. Miami Herald: “Study: Suicide epidemic exists under Castro” by Juan O. Tamayo

    Further reading:

    * Moral Health Care vs. “Universal Health Care” by Lin Zinser and Dr. Paul Hsieh
    * Health Care Is Not a Right by Leonard Peikoff, Ph.D.
    * Health Care Is a Business—or Should Be by Richard E. Ralston
    * Video: Unisured in America (Free Market Cure Documentary Series)
    * Americans for Free Choice in Medicine
    * American Health Care: Essential Principles and Common Fallacies
    * FIRM: Freedom and Individual Rights in Medicine
    * The “Cost” of Medical Care by Thomas Sowell
    * Michael Moore’s Shticko by Michael C. Moynihan
    * NY Times: “As Canada’s Slow-Motion Public Health System Falters, Private Medical Care Is Surging“
    * Do fat people deserve medical treatment?
    * The One Minute Case for Individual Rights
    "
    The One Minute Case Against Socialized Healthcare | One Minute Cases


    The above aren't my words but they are so very rational and compelling in regards to this whole health care fiasco as to just how individual rights should be maintained and protected. Those that think it is proper and moral for the Government to coerce and take property i.e money from one for the benefits of others think and operate from the same collectivist's statist's perspectives as Karl Marks, Stalin, Hitler, Mao or Oblama or Eager Beaver.
    This is the best response to the health care issue that i have seen yet. It is everything that i wanted to say. This entire power grab is to place as many americans as possible dependant on the government period.
    Brush Buster

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eager Beaver View Post
    Why must people put up with no adaquate health insurance. Ask yourself how you feel about health care reform. People that can't afford decent health care die everyday. That I feel is attrocious, and needs to be handled first.
    The Republican's had the White House, Senate, Congress, and the Supreme Court in their pocket. So you need to ask them why there is still an abortion issue yet! They only pull the Abortion issue out to get elected and then forget about it until the next election. That is a FACT and you can check it anytime you have a mind to. That and Homosexuals and Lisbions are great scare tactics to get elected, for the Conservatives. EB
    Folks oughta be fearful about queers and murder. It is against the law of God.
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  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cane Pole View Post
    Folks oughta be fearful about queers and murder. It is against the law of God.
    Folks oughta fear God......

    One thing for sure......every human....past, present, and future...will fear God the exact millisecond they take their last breath........
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    yep ,those canadiens are sure rushing over the border from all that crappy healthcare they receive,,

  6. #36
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    The thing that a lot of you are not mentioneing is that the insurance companies have been in cahoots with the government for decades now and have lobbied successfully over the years for regulations that deffinately benefit them and not us the people. You are fundamentally right to say that there is no right to health care in the US but what you miss is the fact that insurance companies have manipulated the system to the point that they can recoup every dollar they have to spend on someone who "god forbid" needs to actually make a claim on their policy. If you actually need your insurance then look for your premiums to increase regularly until you stop using it or in extreme cases look for your policy to be revokes because they can no longer see making any money off of you. Insurance is a gamble when you get right down to it but there is no gamble on the part of the insurers. If they lose the gamble they simply demand their money back, if you pay for years without making a claim, then look for your calender to be on time this christmas.
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    Quote Originally Posted by big "E" View Post
    The thing that a lot of you are not mentioneing is that the insurance companies have been in cahoots with the government for decades now and have lobbied successfully over the years for regulations that deffinately benefit them and not us the people. You are fundamentally right to say that there is no right to health care in the US but what you miss is the fact that insurance companies have manipulated the system to the point that they can recoup every dollar they have to spend on someone who "god forbid" needs to actually make a claim on their policy. If you actually need your insurance then look for your premiums to increase regularly until you stop using it or in extreme cases look for your policy to be revokes because they can no longer see making any money off of you. Insurance is a gamble when you get right down to it but there is no gamble on the part of the insurers. If they lose the gamble they simply demand their money back, if you pay for years without making a claim, then look for your calender to be on time this christmas.
    i agree with ya e

    but, this bill does not address that problem or price problems as well. this is a bad bill, period. if the average citizen can see that, why can't the eggheads in washington see it?

    they were supposed to help with drug costs. this bill doesn't do that because big pharma has gotten to the big "O" too.

    power grab, nothing more.
    incognito....... here fishy fishy fishy

  8. #38
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    Obama is cutting deals with the insurance companies, the Doctors, hospitals, etc, etc etc. You can count on it.

    This administration is just as crooked as any that has occupied the Capitol. Obama tunes his ears to the ones that keep them in power. Protecting the base is the game of this president and it is at the cost of everyone else.

    No politician cares for we the people. They are all pigs in the pen and that pen is now the capitol. FOR SALE!
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  9. #39
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    The BIGGEST problem with health insurance and rising premiums is insurance FRAUD and trivial malpractice lawsuits. It is just as much if not more the greed of the policy holders trying to get something for nothing or "get over on them". In a perfect world the system would work just fine, and that goes with all types of insurance, but face it, people lie cheat and steal for personal gain and everybody pays for it. Now the government wants to intrude into our lives even further and it has nothing to do with "our best interests", its just another leveraging tool to take away our freedoms. Health care reform is nothing more than a power grab for the Dems, mostly Oblahma who is determined to have his name in the history books regardless of what the people want or think.
    I can only wish to be as good as my dog thinks I am

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    1) The biggest problem with health care is that the gov has already screwed it up
    2) The biggest problem with the banking system is the the gov has already screwed it up
    3) The biggest problem with our public school system is that the gov has already screwed it up.

    I could go on but im sure you get my point

    so what is the answer?? According to the current admin " more gov"
    Brush Buster

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