Killing minnows

[Benton B]

For myself the ice bottles and aerator has always been sufficient.... I am now done with this conversation.

Hate to see you check out early, but only you know when it’s time for you to go. I have enjoyed our banter and take no offence.

Your opinion is crystal clear, interesting and fixed solid… you use ice to induce hypothermia in the summer and your stocking density is only handful of minnows; I’m convinced that's how you personally transport a handful of minnows in the summer and clearly that works great for you. That’s a good thing.

“Killing Minnows - dehair and captdave now have some different opinions and professional references about how to keep those minnows alive and healthy all day during summer bait tank transports. They both may make better choices that will work better managing bait tank water quality and maybe be more success keeping their live bait alive in the summer.

By the way, dehair did not open a can of worms, he and likely many others do have real summer live bait mortality problems caused by overstocking and poor bait tank water quality. He simply ask for opinions, ideas, help about how to keep his minnows alive/healthy in his bait tank in the summer. Obviously he would not ask if he had no problems. He did ask and received several opinions… he now has more information and has more choices now to consider for the rest of his fishing life however long that may be.

Is that not a good thing for many live minnow fishermen… more, better bait transport choices, providing healthier bait tank water quality in the summer?

[vfourmax]

Hate to see you check out early, but only you know when it’s time for you to go. I have enjoyed our banter and take no offence.

Your opinion is crystal clear, interesting and fixed solid… you use ice to induce hypothermia in the summer and your stocking density is only handful of minnows; I’m convinced that's how you personally transport a handful of minnows in the summer and clearly that works great for you. That’s a good thing.

“Killing Minnows - dehair and captdave now have some different opinions and professional references about how to keep those minnows alive and healthy all day during summer bait tank transports. They both may make better choices that will work better managing bait tank water quality and maybe be more success keeping their live bait alive in the summer.

By the way, dehair did not open a can of worms, he and likely many others do have real summer live bait mortality problems caused by overstocking and poor bait tank water quality. He simply ask for opinions, ideas, help about how to keep his minnows alive/healthy in his bait tank in the summer. Obviously he would not ask if he had no problems. He did ask and received several opinions… he now has more information and has more choices now to consider for the rest of his fishing life however long that may be.

Is that not a good thing for many live minnow fishermen… more, better bait transport choices, providing healthier bait tank water quality in the summer?

Actually you are right, I am sure that many fisherman face problems due to overstocking and varied water quality problems. These fishermen would likely be much better served by giving solutions that that are proven to help alleviate the situation rather than links to commercial types of operations using equipment and transport methods that most do not use or have access to use or garbage about the new 2018 science that actually is science info that is decades old.

If you are overcrowding then get a bigger cooler, look for a cooler that is longer and wider rather than deeper as more water surface area to help transfer and get rid of the ammonia and co2 in the bait tank will work better at maintaining a better water quality.
Keeping the lid cracked rather than closed will aid in this process as well.

On those really hot days adding frozen bottles of water in the bait tank to help regulate the water temps and increase the Oxygen levels will help.

If you look at my earlier post it is plainly shown how higher water temps impede the oxygen saturation rates making keeping fish healthy harder to accomplish. I have not figured out why some in this thread cannot seem to comprehend that water temperatures and oxygen levels go hand in hand and there is a point that fish mortality rates rise greatly.

The average guy going crappie fishing does not need to invest hundreds of dollars in a oxygen infusion system to have success in taking minnows with him as bait even on hot days.

From my research over the years it is recommended to keep the bait tank water no cooler than a maximum of 8 degrees cooler than the water the fish will be going into if bait or coming out of if a catch that will be placed in the live well.
Even transportation temps are a concern for the big commercial guys as well.

The next time you guys buy minnows feel the temp of the water that the bait guy maintains, bet you will find the water cool to the touch. Not cold mind you but cool. I pretty well guarantee that water will not be 85-90 degrees in the selling dealers bait tank!

And yes there are recommended maximum stocking rates per gallon of water for all species of fish and if maintaining the fishes health is of importance to you search out these maximums and stay within the guidelines for the best results.

Regardless of certain opinions that have been stated within different post in this thread using frozen water bottles to regulate bait well temps is a practice that accepted and considered a proper method to do so. The proper use of ice bottles and in reasonable amounts WILL NOT induce hypothermia and such a statement is very misleading and ludicrous.

As far as a response to my personal way of transporting minnows is yes I do not overstock the number of minnows within a certain sizes container and if I need more minnows than what my bait tank can safely support then I would employ another tank or cooler to act as a second transport vessel.

I prefer to use a cooler or insulated bait tank over an uninsulated bucket.

Yes I do use an aerator and yes if the temps are hot enough I do employ frozen ice bottles to help regulate the temperature of the bait well water.

I also try to keep the minnow vessel shaded and out of direct sunlight if at all possible even more so on really hot days.

Regardless of how careful you are you will occasionally have a bait fish expire and die!

These guidelines are what I feel is minimum for keeping bait for short time frames of a day or so fishing trip.

Any longer time frame then much more effort needs to be put into maintaining water quality including water ph, ammonia levels, stable cool temps, adequate gallons of water for the fish population being kept and so forth.

A good source for information about checking and going about maintaining water quality can be found in many books and publications concerning keeping a home fresh water fish aquarium.

Actually all a bait tank ends up being is a short term mobile aquarium for keeping and transporting your bait fish.

[scrat]

Most places that I bought minnows years ago in bulk from the minnow farms in Meridian Mississippi. They would weigh them up by the pound and put so many to a heavy duty plastic bag half full of water and then fill(blow up) the bag with pure oxygen. We would just use a bag at a time keeping the others in a somewhat cool shaded place and they would stay fresh and good for several days while we used them. I have also used a 5 gallon bucket that I drilled small holes all over with a lid and weight to sink it in some what deep cool water so minnows would stay alive on the lake I fish they stay alive better in the lake than in a minnow bucket for sure. But like everyone else I have fed quite a few to the wife's chickens especially in the hot summer.

[Pithon]

I'm not at all as scientific as the rest of ya'll but my vote is for Engal. My proof that is worth the money doesn't have anything to do with the boat. I strapped the thing to my 4 wheeler, did about a 5 mile ride back into my fishing hole and when I got there didn't have a single dead minnow. I did this 2 days in a row with the same 4 dzn minnows. No science involved but I belive the net inside kept them from banging their noses against the sides. Didn't have that familiar red nose that they usually get. Never have had that kind of success rate with a bucket or Styrofoam cooler. I have held minnows in it for a long as 4 days with no fatalities and have kept minnows in it for 4 days with fatalities (maybe 10)all while adding a Gatoraid bottle of ice per day. Not trying to raise minnows. The net is the biggest plus I THINK.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

[Benton B]

Most places that I bought minnows years ago in bulk from the minnow farms in Meridian Mississippi. They would weigh them up by the pound and put so many to a heavy duty plastic bag half full of water and then fill(blow up) the bag with pure oxygen. We would just use a bag at a time keeping the others in a somewhat cool shaded place and they would stay fresh and good for several days while we used them. I have also used a 5 gallon bucket that I drilled small holes all over with a lid and weight to sink it in some what deep cool water so minnows would stay alive on the lake I fish they stay alive better in the lake than in a minnow bucket for sure. But like everyone else I have fed quite a few to the wife's chickens especially in the hot summer.

That is an extremely simple and effective live bait transport/stockpiling technique that kept your baits alive and healthy pretty good, eh?

Old timers and Grandpa call this – “Rocket Science.” Grandpa says this way too much trouble and you got to pay money for welding oxygen, it is cost prohibitive and frankly, it silly, too expensive. Air is Free but, you got to buy and replace those air pumps, batteries and bubblers which is additional cost to get that FREE air bubbles in your bait tank..

Live bait transport and overnight stockpiling doesn’t get any easier than this for sure and this works so well. How in the world does a bait dealer make this so simple and easy?

So how in the world did those baits survived so well so long sitting in the shade all day and all night in a little plastic bag filled with a little water, 1 lb. of baits and only pure 100% oxygen gas in the bag’s gas space?… no hypothermia using ice, no aerator, no Engle cooler, no better bait chemical, no problems with ammonia, acid water, no water exchanges, no mortality using those plastic bags until the bag was opened and the oxygen was lost.

That little bit of pure 100% compressed welding oxygen may have cost that bait dealer a penny, may 1 ½ pennies. The bait, the water and the pure 100% O2 gas inside the bag remained stable at ambient temperature in the shade for many hours daylight and overnight.
Was this summer temperatures or spring temperatures? My Grandpa is special, he would say with confidence that this stocking is crazy, unnatural, not normal and deadly. He has no idea or concept that regular fishermen do this too with the same oxygen tanks they use at home for their cutting torch. He’s set in his ways and he cannot see, taste or feel the difference between air and welding oxygen. He says air is free, end of discussion. We laugh… and keep on fishing.

That transport technique does not fit the criteria fishermen, outdoor writers, bait tank salesmen and aerator salesmen would consider anything close to normal/safe stocking density which is 1 lb. live bait per 8 lbs. water or 1 gallon of water (with mechanical aerators and ambient air, 20% elemental oxygen)?
How much water did the bait dealer put into the plastic bag with that 1 lb. of live minnows? Did each plastic bag contain 1 gallon water (8 lbs.)… 1/2 gallon water (4 lbs. water)… a quart of water (2 lbs. water)… a pint of water (1 lb. water)?
Whatever the stocking density to water ratio was your plastic bags, that ratio clearly work great with pure oxygen. What if that gas space in the bag was with and air pump and ambient air?
Those overland live hauls can take many hours and can range hundreds of highway miles delivering live bait, but their livelihood depends on getting those live, healthy minnows to all their route retail bait dealers for resale.
Do these professional live fish transporters ever chill their hauling water with ice inducing hypothermia? Of course they don’t… there’s way too many problems with temperature shock, mortality, morbidity upon delivery and is simply not necessary.
They don’t use mechanical aerators hoping to insure safe oxygenation in their haul water either, they use pure 100% welding oxygen or liquid oxygen in their haul tanks, The lonely bait dealer might have his minnow tanks inside his shop that is air conditioned (75F inside air temp), but some bait dealers simply cannot/will not afford A/C.

[Benton B]

Actually you are right, I am sure that many fisherman face problems due to overstocking and varied water quality problems. These fishermen would likely be much better served by giving solutions that that are proven to help alleviate the situation rather than links to commercial types of operations using equipment and transport methods that most do not use or have access to use or garbage about the new 2018 science that actually is science info that is decades old.

If you are overcrowding then get a bigger cooler, look for a cooler that is longer and wider rather than deeper as more water surface area to help transfer and get rid of the ammonia and co2 in the bait tank will work better at maintaining a better water quality.
Keeping the lid cracked rather than closed will aid in this process as well.

On those really hot days adding frozen bottles of water in the bait tank to help regulate the water temps and increase the Oxygen levels will help.

If you look at my earlier post it is plainly shown how higher water temps impede the oxygen saturation rates making keeping fish healthy harder to accomplish. I have not figured out why some in this thread cannot seem to comprehend that water temperatures and oxygen levels go hand in hand and there is a point that fish mortality rates rise greatly.

The average guy going crappie fishing does not need to invest hundreds of dollars in a oxygen infusion system to have success in taking minnows with him as bait even on hot days.

From my research over the years it is recommended to keep the bait tank water no cooler than a maximum of 8 degrees cooler than the water the fish will be going into if bait or coming out of if a catch that will be placed in the live well.
Even transportation temps are a concern for the big commercial guys as well.

The next time you guys buy minnows feel the temp of the water that the bait guy maintains, bet you will find the water cool to the touch. Not cold mind you but cool. I pretty well guarantee that water will not be 85-90 degrees in the selling dealers bait tank!

And yes there are recommended maximum stocking rates per gallon of water for all species of fish and if maintaining the fishes health is of importance to you search out these maximums and stay within the guidelines for the best results.

Regardless of certain opinions that have been stated within different post in this thread using frozen water bottles to regulate bait well temps is a practice that accepted and considered a proper method to do so. The proper use of ice bottles and in reasonable amounts WILL NOT induce hypothermia and such a statement is very misleading and ludicrous.

As far as a response to my personal way of transporting minnows is yes I do not overstock the number of minnows within a certain sizes container and if I need more minnows than what my bait tank can safely support then I would employ another tank or cooler to act as a second transport vessel.

I prefer to use a cooler or insulated bait tank over an uninsulated bucket.

Yes I do use an aerator and yes if the temps are hot enough I do employ frozen ice bottles to help regulate the temperature of the bait well water.

I also try to keep the minnow vessel shaded and out of direct sunlight if at all possible even more so on really hot days.

Regardless of how careful you are you will occasionally have a bait fish expire and die!

These guidelines are what I feel is minimum for keeping bait for short time frames of a day or so fishing trip.

Any longer time frame then much more effort needs to be put into maintaining water quality including water ph, ammonia levels, stable cool temps, adequate gallons of water for the fish population being kept and so forth.

A good source for information about checking and going about maintaining water quality can be found in many books and publications concerning keeping a home fresh water fish aquarium.

Actually all a bait tank ends up being is a short term mobile aquarium for keeping and transporting your bait fish.

Glad to see you back so soon, I thought you were gone yesterday.

Here’s some low-tech livewell/bait tank/livewell technology that may interest you. The concept of ventilation technology is simple, no Rocket Science here, just advertisement, infomercial and fishermen’s testimonials… but it sound great for $45.

Grandpa like this and he is convinced that he needs these air vents to get more oxygen into his bait tank water for his baits this summer. He says what kills his minnows in his bait tank every summer is the hot environmental water doesn’t have enough dissolved and his baits suffocate in this bait tank. Yet those minnows and fish live fine in the summer in that same 90F shallow lake water…. really confusing how all that works in 95 F summer weather.

The New Pro Products V-T2 Livewell Ventilation System https://www.newproproducts.com/products.html allows continuous oxygen to flow inside of your livewell and provides a release for heat and other metabolic gasses, which can be harmful to fish.

…the V-T2 works by any movement of air from a breeze, your trolling motor or running your boat to direct ambient and oxygen-rich air into the livewell that cools the livewell water by the processes of convection and evaporative cooling.

FACT: oxygen rich or oxygen enriched air contains an oxygen concentration of 24% oxygen or greater. Ambient air that aerators pump only contain 20%elemental oxygen (O2) at sea level and at the crest of Mt. Everest, 28K ft. elevation.

I have wondered why Everest climbers go to all the trouble and cost to carry those heavy O2 tanks up that mountain and breath/use pure 100% compressed oxygen there when there’s plenty of pure fresh ambient air available.

Have you ever thought about that too?

[Benton B]

I'm not at all as scientific as the rest of ya'll but my vote is for Engal. My proof that is worth the money doesn't have anything to do with the boat. I strapped the thing to my 4 wheeler, did about a 5 mile ride back into my fishing hole and when I got there didn't have a single dead minnow. I did this 2 days in a row with the same 4 dzn minnows. No science involved but I belive the net inside kept them from banging their noses against the sides. Didn't have that familiar red nose that they usually get. Never have had that kind of success rate with a bucket or Styrofoam cooler. I have held minnows in it for a long as 4 days with no fatalities and have kept minnows in it for 4 days with fatalities (maybe 10)all while adding a Gatoraid bottle of ice per day. Not trying to raise minnows. The net is the biggest plus I THINK.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

No disrespect for your bait tank or any other fisherman’s livewell/bait tanks.

Just for clarity, what are livewells/bait tanks and what should a fisherman really expect [not hope for] from any livewell/bait tank whether it’s a 5 gallon plastic bucket or a $400 brand name bait tank?

Livewell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livewell “A livewell is a tank found on many fishing boats that is used to keep bait and caught fish alive.” “...keep bait and fish alive” is the sole purpose of this box. Look at the last 2 paragraphs regarding the vital importance of water quality inside any livewell/bait tank.

That’s all it is… round tanks cause less physical injury than square corner tanks, insulated tanks keep water temperature more stable than tanks with no insulation, some tanks have water filters that filter the big chunks of vomit/feces and scales and foreign material.

Have you ever wondered what really makes bait consolidate in bait tanks with 90 degree corners and catcher the red-nose, get lethargic, get sick and die in a summer bait tank/livewell?

Transporting live fish is light years different than insuring water quality for a few fish in a home aquarium living is a controlled steady state environment with no extreme stress exposure. Extreme stress during that bait tank experience is the worst day in that baits life and it gets much worse for that bait when netted, hooked up and tossed into that hot summer lake water. You can bet that all the adrenaline that bat can produced has been exhausted and then, the ultimate horror, the coup de gras… when that exhausted bait realized a fish, larger than him is going to kill it and eat it and there’s no adrenaline left to fight or run. That day in that bait tank is no doubt the very worse day of that bait’s short life.

[Pithon]

No disrespect for your bait tank or any other fisherman’s livewell/bait tanks.

Just for clarity, what are livewells/bait tanks and what should a fisherman really expect [not hope for] from any livewell/bait tank whether it’s a 5 gallon plastic bucket or a $400 brand name bait tank?

Livewell - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Livewell “A livewell is a tank found on many fishing boats that is used to keep bait and caught fish alive.� “...keep bait and fish alive� is the sole purpose of this box. Look at the last 2 paragraphs regarding the vital importance of water quality inside any livewell/bait tank.

That’s all it is… round tanks cause less physical injury than square corner tanks, insulated tanks keep water temperature more stable than tanks with no insulation, some tanks have water filters that filter the big chunks of vomit/feces and scales and foreign material.

Have you ever wondered what really makes bait consolidate in bait tanks with 90 degree corners and catcher the red-nose, get lethargic, get sick and die in a summer bait tank/livewell?

Transporting live fish is light years different than insuring water quality for a few fish in a home aquarium living is a controlled steady state environment with no extreme stress exposure. Extreme stress during that bait tank experience is the worst day in that baits life and it gets much worse for that bait when netted, hooked up and tossed into that hot summer lake water. You can bet that all the adrenaline that bat can produced has been exhausted and then, the ultimate horror, the coup de gras… when that exhausted bait realized a fish, larger than him is going to kill it and eat it and there’s no adrenaline left to fight or run. That day in that bait tank is no doubt the very worse day of that bait’s short life.

Lol. Worst day in their lives. Never brought feelings into this. Never have associated feelings with livestock. I don't name them either. They are there to serve a purpose for me. Same as dogs, cows, horses, and sheep. But you will be glad to know that at the end of 4 days I ALWAYS turn them loose in the pond out back and get a kick out of watching their last burst of energy go towards trying to out run that bass back up to the bank. Might be morbid but the pursuit is what I like. Then it's off to go get some new minnows.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

[SeaRay]

It's hard to kill a Berkley Crappie Nibble!!

And I hadn't seen a jig tube body float belly up yet either due to excessively hot weather or water!!

Lastly, not many crankbait lives are lost due to excessively hot weather or water. Now, structure is a whole other subject...

Carry on!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

I bought an Igloo Cube. It has a small storage compartment in the lid. I cut out the bottom so I can easily open and close with one hand. I have a 12 volt aerator in it with the tube through a hole in the side of cooler. Works as well as anything else I've tried.

Sent from my LG-H871 using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

[Benton B]

Lol. Worst day in their lives. Never brought feelings into this. Never have associated feelings with livestock. I don't name them either. They are there to serve a purpose for me. Same as dogs, cows, horses, and sheep. But you will be glad to know that at the end of 4 days I ALWAYS turn them loose in the pond out back and get a kick out of watching their last burst of energy go towards trying to out run that bass back up to the bank. Might be morbid but the pursuit is what I like. Then it's off to go get some new minnows.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

Catch and Release… good for you.

Sorry you misunderstood what I wrote or that may be a quick pivot, anyway, I’ll be clearer to prevent more confusion. I wrote, “Extreme stress during that bait tank experience is the worst day in that baits life…” That has nothing to foo with “feelings.”

I am talking about extreme physiological stressors that auto activate the Fight-or-Flight response https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fight-or-flight response.

Live bait fishermen can and do manipulate that natural Flight-or-Flight response in a very positive way. Some make supercharged baits that are abnormally stronger, more active and more durable than any fresh caught bait. We might talk about how to do that later, another thread maybe… imagine a fresh caught live bait fish on crack cocaine or blue meth will best described what a fisherman can do with live bait if he knows how to do that.
Some prominent crappie fishermen do this with their minnows, but they are fishing for money and their minnow quality is a real big deal for guys like Ronny Capps and Steve Coleman and other serious live minnow fishermen… winning the top tournament money is at stake here which is the whole point of the exercise. Of course this would be of no interest or concern for the average fisherman keeping a handful on minnows in his bait tank.
This Flight-or-flight physiological auto response profoundly affects behaviors of people, fish, dogs, pet cats, large wild cats, deer, and has nothing to do with a fishes feelings if in fact fish do have feelings. It is a primal survival instinct that is innate, not a learned response.
It is interesting to see/understand how any fisherman can activate, manipulate and induce a most powerful innate survival response in live bait. Some may call doing this, “Rocket Science” probably because it is certainly not normal to do this to bait fish.
Do you think fish have feeling like human emotional feelings? I have no idea nor interest, I never ask a fish this question although I have thought about it after reading the PETA promotional materials. Probably a good question for a fish physiologist.
Little bait fish really have tiny brains, but you can bet being caught, netted, handled and trapped in a livewell/bait tank with poor water quality for even a short period on a summer day is a primary cause of red-nose, scale sluff, electrolyte imbalance, acute osmoregulation problems and many more stress related problems.
No we are back on track, I believe it was the PETA organization that talks about fish having feelings with classic human emotional traits. Maybe that where you slipped off track.
Anyway, are we’re back on track now, maybe?