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Thread: Need some help making a decision?

  1. #11
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    Mar 2005
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    South Carolina
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    MR. G,
    Believe it or not i bought my 1st bass boat from mr. bill back 15 years ago. I know them well. They use to sell mariner motors. Yes they good folks. And he and you are right the problem seems to lie with the carb. on the 4 strokes and the jets. I run my rig on average once a week year round in fall thru spring might use it three times a week. I've put a water seperator on my gas line and that has help greatly. I just know from the other boats I own that the fuel injection doesn't seem to have any of those problem and they set up a whole lot more that my 4 stroke. The only complaint I have with yamaha is they tell me they know about our problems but the keep making them with same set up or so my dealer and tech guy is telling me.
    If you don't get hung every-once-n-a-while you ain't jigg'n it right..:D
    Member of:
    South Carolina Crappie Association TX. Trail
    Vexan Pro-staff Member

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    Cayce, SC
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    Stumpjumper
    It sounds like you're right on top of it. glad to hear that you know Bill well. I've known him about 35 years when he worked at Pine Crest.. He was pulling wrenchs on Merc then. We use to fly Radio Control Airplanes together. He was really a good pilot. Much better than I was.. I use to just bore hoes in the sky, none of that fancy flying....

    It sound like you're flushing a lot of fuel through that engine.. I wish that I was able to fish that much.. If the water seperator helps, it sounds like there might be something in that fuel that's clogging up those jets.. I think that maybe they drilled out mine because when I got it back there were some small brass fileing like what would come from a drill bit still sitting below where the carbs are at. They said that they hadn't, but the bad spot had went away..

    With the problem that you're having, maybe I should start filtering my fuel.. Has Bill looked at your motor or is it someone else.

    Gerald
    Gerald K4NHN
    Cayce, SC

  3. #13
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    Mr.G,
    Bill hasn't look at it because the last time I knew anything about them they where mariner folks. But I think both our problems would be fix if yamaha would go with efi. I think I've read you fish in the swamp and if you do you know 1st hand you don't want to have to trollingmotor or paddle out from in there. Its tuff enough sometimes with the big motor. But, thanks for the info about Quailty marine if I keep it and still have the same problem coming back I'll take it to them next time; cause you are correct they are GOOD PEOPLE.
    If you don't get hung every-once-n-a-while you ain't jigg'n it right..:D
    Member of:
    South Carolina Crappie Association TX. Trail
    Vexan Pro-staff Member

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Rolla, Missouri, United States
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    Default Yamaha EFI

    Looks like the lowest HP EFI from Yamaha is 50 HP 4-STROKE EFI YAMAHA.
    Duane

    My ex-wife calls me a CrappieHead
    divorced and no one to answer to, lets go fishing

  5. #15
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    Jan 2005
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    I'm a little worried about the EFI on an outboard. A carb can be cheaply cleaned when todays fuel goes bad or gets old. Briggs and Stratton warns to never use gas any older than 30 days although 60 days may be OK in my opinion. Everybody has had gas gum up an outboard carb but just imagine if you have to replace high pressure fuel pumps and injectors. We're talking big bucks now. Carbs Rule! Don't forget the "KISS" rule. " Keep it simple,,, stupid". seeya, Don

  6. #16
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    Apr 2004
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    Cayce, SC
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    Stumpjumper
    Quality has been a Yamaha dealer for several years now.. And you're right about having the motor die up in Indigo Flats. It's about 3 miles just out to the river and then about 7 miles up.. I think about that every time I go there. As long as I'm not the last one out, I have a little hope that the last out would help me... My son always know where I'm at so if I have to spend the night there, a couple of guys have a pretty good idea where to find me the next day...

    Gerald
    Gerald K4NHN
    Cayce, SC

  7. #17
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    Mar 2005
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    Humid Valley, New Jersey
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    Thumbs up

    Here is a few "last tips of the night".
    I wouldn't put Sta-Bil in my outboard fuel if you handed it to me along with a $50 bill. It does exactly what it says on the can. So I can't blame them for lying. It will prevent the formation of deposits and will also prevent the evaporation of the fuel. The problem is that fuel must evaporate to burn. Sta-Bil treated fuel may make it impossible to start your motor. You may have to drain it and flush it with new gas, including the carb, to get her started.
    I actually heard this from a retired EXXON chemical engineer about 25 years ago. Unfortunately, it was about 15 years ago that I had rebuilt a "classic" 1970 9hp McCullough outboard. When I got done with it, that thing ran so well you could literally get it started by gently turning the flywheel by hand. After a week of rest it would start with the most gentle rope pull, and would idle instantly, good enough to troll for lakers all day. I used to do that for people who would not believe me. It was January and I was ready to put the thing to sleep for about 3 months, so I did what an associate recommended. I used some Sta-Bil. A motor 'that good' had to be treated just right, I thought! About two days later, another friend came over and I decided to show him the "miracle motor". It wouldn't start no matter what I did. It would not even fire once. I never lived that down, except to myself. I have been servicing all kinds of motors for my whole life, and I knew that simple thing inside / out! I also loved it. The only thing that got it started was to completely flush the carb and the entire fuel system. Man, was I pissed, but not at the motor, I was pissed at the Sta-Bil. I am also a scientist. I took some gas with Sta-Bil in it and poured a little in a cap and threw a match at it. It would not burn! I am not kidding. I have owned and serviced a large number of gasoline engines. I have never used that Sta-Bil crap in any of them ever, except for the McCullough. I have also never had a fuel related starting problem with any of them ever, 1, 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinder, or any 2 cycle, even the ones that sat still for YEARS with gas in them!!!! All of a sudden I had a flashback to what Mr. EXXON said. "Modern gasoline is totally different from the old stuff. You don't need to add anything to it".
    Apparently you don't, with regards to preservation. I have not seen "gumming" in a carb on a 2 or 4 cycle engine in at least 25 years.
    However, it is possible to get enough 'water' into your gas to cause a problem. In that case use 'Isopropyl Alcohol' gas dry. Follow the directions and be prepared to do fuel draining in severe cases. Run the wet stuff in your car. 4 cycles are much more tolerant than 2 cycles.
    It is also possible to get 'particles' in a carb.
    That happened to the Johnson outboard I use every week, almost all year. The fuel was filtered up to 'before the fuel pump'. The fuel pump was actually releasing particles from its gasket small enough to get through the float valve, but big enough to clog the main jet. Removal of the particles fixed it, both times it happened. I'm still looking for an in-line filter, for 5/32 line, small enough to fit there, after the pump, before the carb.
    Conclusions:
    It is probably wise to use a "water separating fuel filter", even on a seemingly small outboard rig, when you are going beyond a few miles from safety. They change out just like oil filters. They are used all the time on bigger saltwater rigs. Nobody wants to go out there with the chance of that happening. I don't have any experience with using alcohol on a rig with that kind of filter, but it works on rigs without that filter if you are willing to spend time running the alcohol through. And I don't want 30 minutes of Crappie fishing time taken from me on any Crappie fishing trip. Check your fuel system for water leaks at the "filler cap" and the "tank air vents". Remember, just because you didn't see water getting in, doesn't mean it didn't get in. A small amount of Isopropyl on a regular basis may prevent any "water in the fuel" surprises. Also, remember that water is not necessarily death. I ran a water-injected, carbureted, Chevy smallblock car on the street for 7 years. Water injection can clean and reduce octane requirements. But, liquid water in liquid gas can be out of control, a no-start.
    Carbs are great, but sometimes you have to treat them just like women, look for the TINY little things that are annoying. But it is easy, when you know how.
    Fuel injection is another animal...but most of the same things are true.
    Last edited by Pomoxis 2; 10-28-2005 at 12:50 AM.
    Sorry for my Crappie attitude.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
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    Cayce, SC
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    Default One Test, Worth 1000 Opions

    I wish that I could shed some light on why your motor didn't crank after only 2 days of haveing added Sta-Bil or why your fuel went bad. I don't doubt that it was your fuel though. Gas problems are a common cause after motors set up..

    Why your test of trying to set some on fire didn't ignite, the only reason I can think of is that it was loaded with water. And I agree that it can get into the gas in many ways. Condensation is the most common that I've run across.

    I looked up some information that's published on what's in Sta-Bil and it showes that it's 95 % Naphthenic, Minerial oil, Petroleum Distillates, Hydratealed light. I believe that's mostly petroleum products. And on their label they say " Combustible Do Not Use Near fire, or Source of Iginion...

    So I went out this AM and got some old Sta-Bil, several years old, and some new stuff out of the boat and made up a mixture. A 50 / 50 of gas and Sta-Bil of the old and new stuff ignited with no problem. I then tried 1 tablespoon straight Sta-Bil and it wouldn't ignite with a Bar B Que lighter. I added 2 drops of gas, mixed it together and it fired right off and burned until it was all gone... pictures are attatched. The one with the Sta-Bil bottle on the left is the Sta-Bil with 2 drops of gas added.

    I do know that here in the south that I still see carbs that are gummed up, crudded up, varnished up or what ever you want to call it that have been left setting up with fuel left in them, usually over winter.. I'm not a scientist or a mechanic by trade. I just have done my share of pulling wrenchs here at the house on my own junk and helping friends that are in trouble...

    I've never had a problem that I can say that it came from useing Sta-Bil or any friends either. But I see problems that do come from not useing it. I also see a lot of companies that have in their manuals that gas starts to go bad in 30 to 60 day and many recommend useing some sort of stabilizing additive.

    Anyone that doesn't feel that it's good for them, shouldn't use any additives to their fuel. I've talked with several boat mechanics around here and they all have said that they see more problems because of the fotmulation and sour gas today than several years ago and recommend an addition. Maybe this just happen in the southern states and it's different in others areas of the country...

    I also used water injection in my younger hot "rodding days" Flat head fords, dual carbs, high compression heads, and.....Oooh to be young again!!!!

    Tight lines and limits to all
    Gerald




    Quote Originally Posted by Pomoxis
    Here is a few "last tips of the night".
    I wouldn't put Sta-Bil in my outboard fuel if you handed it to me along with a $50 bill. It does exactly what it says on the can. So I can't blame them for lying. It will prevent the formation of deposits and will also prevent the evaporation of the fuel. The problem is that fuel must evaporate to burn. Sta-Bil treated fuel may make it impossible to start your motor. You may have to drain it and flush it with new gas, including the carb, to get her started.
    I actually heard this from a retired EXXON chemical engineer about 25 years ago. Unfortunately, it was about 15 years ago that I had rebuilt a "classic" 1970 9hp McCullough outboard. When I got done with it, that thing ran so well you could literally get it started by gently turning the flywheel by hand. After a week of rest it would start with the most gentle rope pull, and would idle instantly, good enough to troll for lakers all day. I used to do that for people who would not believe me. It was January and I was ready to put the thing to sleep for about 3 months, so I did what an associate recommended. I used some Sta-Bil. A motor 'that good' had to be treated just right, I thought! About two days later, another friend came over and I decided to show him the "miracle motor". It wouldn't start no matter what I did. It would not even fire once. I never lived that down, except to myself. I have been servicing all kinds of motors for my whole life, and I knew that simple thing inside / out! I also loved it. The only thing that got it started was to completely flush the carb and the entire fuel system. Man, was I pissed, but not at the motor, I was pissed at the Sta-Bil. I am also a scientist. I took some gas with Sta-Bil in it and poured a little in a cap and threw a match at it. It would not burn! I am not kidding. I have owned and serviced a large number of gasoline engines. I have never used that Sta-Bil crap in any of them ever, except for the McCullough. I have also never had a fuel related starting problem with any of them ever, 1, 2, 4, 6, or 8 cylinder, or any 2 cycle, even the ones that sat still for YEARS with gas in them!!!! All of a sudden I had a flashback to what Mr. EXXON said. "Modern gasoline is totally different from the old stuff. You don't need to add anything to it".
    Apparently you don't, with regards to preservation. I have not seen "gumming" in a carb on a 2 or 4 cycle engine in at least 25 years.
    However, it is possible to get enough 'water' into your gas to cause a problem. In that case use 'Isopropyl Alcohol' gas dry. Follow the directions and be prepared to do fuel draining in severe cases. Run the wet stuff in your car. 4 cycles are much more tolerant than 2 cycles.
    It is also possible to get 'particles' in a carb.
    That happened to the Johnson outboard I use every week, almost all year. The fuel was filtered up to 'before the fuel pump'. The fuel pump was actually releasing particles from its gasket small enough to get through the float valve, but big enough to clog the main jet. Removal of the particles fixed it, both times it happened. I'm still looking for an in-line filter, for 5/32 line, small enough to fit there, after the pump, before the carb.
    Conclusions:
    It is probably wise to use a "water separating fuel filter", even on a seemingly small outboard rig, when you are going beyond a few miles from safety. They change out just like oil filters. They are used all the time on bigger saltwater rigs. Nobody wants to go out there with the chance of that happening. I don't have any experience with using alcohol on a rig with that kind of filter, but it works on rigs without that filter if you are willing to spend time running the alcohol through. And I don't want 30 minutes of Crappie fishing time taken from me on any Crappie fishing trip. Check your fuel system for water leaks at the "filler cap" and the "tank air vents". Remember, just because you didn't see water getting in, doesn't mean it didn't get in. A small amount of Isopropyl on a regular basis may prevent any "water in the fuel" surprises. Also, remember that water is not necessarily death. I ran a water-injected, carbureted, Chevy smallblock car on the street for 7 years. Water injection can clean and reduce octane requirements. But, liquid water in liquid gas can be out of control, a no-start.
    Carbs are great, but sometimes you have to treat them just like women, look for the TINY little things that are annoying. But it is easy, when you know how.
    Fuel injection is another animal...but most of the same things are true.
    Attached Images Attached Images    
    Gerald K4NHN
    Cayce, SC

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Clarksville, Va--Falls/Kerr lakes
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    592
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    Thumbs up my $.02....

    ...just my personal experiences but...always left fuel in my weed eater, leaf-blower, chainsaw..etc...if any set-up w/o use for 3-4 months I would have to pull carbs and clean jets, bowl etc.... ...buddy of mine turned me on to Sta-bil, so I tried it..that was 15 years ago and I have'nt had to pull a carb or do any clean-out since..... :p ....usually just have to pull cord 2-3 times and they fire right up...I leave gas in em year round with no problems, just fired up my leaf-blower after sitting for 8 months...I worked as a mechanic for the last 10 years until I hurt my neck and all the guys/gals i worked with swear by Sta-bil, I also have a friend who runs a outboard repair business and both he and all of his customers use Sta-bil with no ill effects...... :rolleyes:

    I don't have any stock in Sta-bil nor do I receive any money from them, I just know what works for me and people I know.... :D ...
    Tighten er down till ya strip it--then back off 1/4 turn..
    HEY,,Y'all watch THIS..........

  10. #20
    Wardy Guest

    Default

    I have had no problems with stabil. I just changed plugs and the mechanic sated the plugs looked as clean as they get. I have also tried adding Sea Foam. If that stuff won't work... get out the tools. I had gas set in a weed eater for two years. The stuff looked like glue. One swish with fresh gas/Sea Foam.... purrrrrrr! Proper measuring may be the key. I have had friends claim that stabil shut down their motors. I suspect it was not the stabil but some other blockage that had not cleared.

    2 cents...
    Wardy

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