Killing minnows

[vfourmax]

Thanks for tuning in and expressing your opinions, especially about steady state home aquarium environments and fish care:
Regarding summer extreme high stress, unsteady state live fish transports in small bait tanks in hot summer environments, that difference is polar.

Sounds like you’re really pleased with your summer live bait quality using a few bottles of ice, mechanical aerator and for a hand-full of minnows stocking density. To each his own so to speak.

How often do you fish with/transport a hand full of live minnows in the summer?

“Rocket science” bait keeping is basically anything more advanced than ice induced hypothermic bait tank water in the summer, mechanical aerators and bait pumps. Some fishermen are really not happy with that summer bait quality/mortality and want something better especially if they want to bring extra live bait in their bait tank. Fishermen love to bring along extra bait to compensate for the dead and dying bait in the tank.

Dumping ice water bottles or plain ice (hypothermia) works well too to chill bait tank water has been popular for decades. My grandfather was a true believer in icing down the bait tank water every summer. He brought an ice chest with frozen water bottles just for the bait tank. Hypothermic baits experience profound stress when netted, handled, hooked up and tossed into hot, hypoxic summer environmental water. You know those chilled baits wilt quickly and game fish are not impressed in wilted bait fish and all bait fishermen know that.

But, there are other real good options to drastically improve summer live bait quality for those that want something/anything better than ice (hypothermia). Salt is an excellent bait tank water conditioner, it reduces the work of osmoregulation and it’s cheap and effective too, 50# bag cost about $5.00.

I think that in many cases the concept of what is required to accomplish a goal is over complicated looking for a 'better" way while not improving the end results. The purpose of the ice bottles used correctly is not to induce hypothermia as you put it but to maintain the water temperature to within a more favorable level tp promote the fishes survival.

Each species of fish thrives in certain water temps and cannot tolerate water temps to far out of that range for long term survival. A trout would die from high water temp related distress where a bluegill for instance may do fine at that temperature.

Your original post was comparing how bait hatcheries and dealers were able to keep fish alive and the hatcheries could transport them long distances while maintaining the fishes health and comparing that to as you put it

"Those summer minnow problems don’t begin until the fisherman takes possession of those minnows and puts them into his bait tank or livewell, know what I mean?"

and the exact reason that I brought up that your comparison was more an apples to oranges and in line with comparing to the individual using better more controllable home based environments and equipment to compare than based on a bait tank or cooler sitting on a boat deck.

I am not saying that improvements cannot be made but I am saying it is not a black magic and the science and knowledge is available through research for the average Joe.

Yes I have done okay in my area using ice bottles to keep water temps bearable and aerators in summer fishing when I use live bait. And I have done so for about the last 50 years or so on and off although 30 years ago it was either only adding a little ice or using a flow through trolling minnow bucket in the water beside the boat as I fished.

I am also from a different area of the country where the heat of the summer may not be as big of a issue as you deal with down in Texas so our summer may be like your late spring. lol!

So yes I have somewhat improved my methods over the years and do okay for the short time frame I usually keep the minnows for.

My latest endeavor is starting to trap minnows in the body of water I will be fishing and no longer purchasing minnows by the lb. or dozen as live bait shops are not very prominent in my immediate area any longer.

But instead of saying you should learn from the and I quote you " These people are the real experts at keeping minnows alive and healthy to the point of sales. Consider cutting-to-the-chase and talk with those bait dealers and find out how they keep and transport those minnows" end quote.

And perhaps you should have mentioned what these people have taught you about the water treatments they employ or your salt trick and some science behind its use instead of just leaving it to give no useful information except to lay the blame on the fisherman and his methods after he takes possession of the bait fish.

I still stand by my it is not rocket science only application of proven science and products which can keep a fish within a reasonable range to promote the health of that species of fish. Gained knowledge is never a waste and yes things can in many cases be improved on but sometimes just like there is more than one method to remove the skin off of a catfish in the end they all result in a skinned catfish regardless of the method used to get there.

[vfourmax]

Lastly, not many crankbait lives are lost due to excessively hot weather or water. Now, structure is a whole other subject...

Carry on!

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

But dang if you snag one and lose it it cost more from that one loss than if the whole dang dozen of the minners dropped dead!

[FIN]

Thisone from Amazon is a good one for the money.
https://www.amazon.com/Flambeau-Outd...t+top+5+gallon

[captdave]

I think that in many cases the concept of what is required to accomplish a goal is over complicated looking for a 'better" way while not improving the end results. The purpose of the ice bottles used correctly is not to induce hypothermia as you put it but to maintain the water temperature to within a more favorable level tp promote the fishes survival.

Each species of fish thrives in certain water temps and cannot tolerate water temps to far out of that range for long term survival. A trout would die from high water temp related distress where a bluegill for instance may do fine at that temperature.

Your original post was comparing how bait hatcheries and dealers were able to keep fish alive and the hatcheries could transport them long distances while maintaining the fishes health and comparing that to as you put it

"Those summer minnow problems don’t begin until the fisherman takes possession of those minnows and puts them into his bait tank or livewell, know what I mean?"

and the exact reason that I brought up that your comparison was more an apples to oranges and in line with comparing to the individual using better more controllable home based environments and equipment to compare than based on a bait tank or cooler sitting on a boat deck.

I am not saying that improvements cannot be made but I am saying it is not a black magic and the science and knowledge is available through research for the average Joe.

Yes I have done okay in my area using ice bottles to keep water temps bearable and aerators in summer fishing when I use live bait. And I have done so for about the last 50 years or so on and off although 30 years ago it was either only adding a little ice or using a flow through trolling minnow bucket in the water beside the boat as I fished.

I am also from a different area of the country where the heat of the summer may not be as big of a issue as you deal with down in Texas so our summer may be like your late spring. lol!

So yes I have somewhat improved my methods over the years and do okay for the short time frame I usually keep the minnows for.

My latest endeavor is starting to trap minnows in the body of water I will be fishing and no longer purchasing minnows by the lb. or dozen as live bait shops are not very prominent in my immediate area any longer.

But instead of saying you should learn from the and I quote you " These people are the real experts at keeping minnows alive and healthy to the point of sales. Consider cutting-to-the-chase and talk with those bait dealers and find out how they keep and transport those minnows" end quote.

And perhaps you should have mentioned what these people have taught you about the water treatments they employ or your salt trick and some science behind its use instead of just leaving it to give no useful information except to lay the blame on the fisherman and his methods after he takes possession of the bait fish.

I still stand by my it is not rocket science only application of proven science and products which can keep a fish within a reasonable range to promote the health of that species of fish. Gained knowledge is never a waste and yes things can in many cases be improved on but sometimes just like there is more than one method to remove the skin off of a catfish in the end they all result in a skinned catfish regardless of the method used to get there.

So can someone give some guidance on specifically what to do to keep minners longer please?

[dhaire]

Thanks everyone. Did not mean to open a can of worms (sorry, I could not resist). I think I will go with jigs slathered with SlabSauce.


Sent from my iPad using Crappie.com Fishing mobile app

[vfourmax]

So can someone give some guidance on specifically what to do to keep minners longer please?

I think you will see that keeping minnows is something that you will find varied opinions on. The first thing is what do you define as longer? Then how many minnows in what type and size enclosure? What types of temperature extremes are we talking?

There are so many variables involved that what works for one may be different for another. In my area of the country what I call hot weather may be considered a milder day in other parts of the country.

Here where I am at upper 80's to low 90's is normal summer hot heat days with a good dose of humidity thrown in.

Also the type of weather one may endure to go fishing could also vary by individual and for me since I am retired and can more pick my days I am more than likely not going to stay out above the upper 80 range very often any more.

So for me with a high of the upper 80's only keeping minners for a days duration I do fine using an aerator and a bottle or so of frozen ice in the bait cooler on the worst of days and do fine.

Also the cooler water although colder than water surface temps in the summer at times when you are fishing at 12-20 foot depths or more the water temps you are fishing your bait at will be much cooler and not such a difference as you feel on the surface temps.

I mention that because it was brought up previously talking about hypothermia of the bait fish.

When I was a youngster we had a swimming lake we frequented that had an 18 ft high dive platform. The water depth at that platform was a bit over 20 ft deep and as kids we would dive and swim to the bottom and grab a handful of lake mud to prove to your buddies you had been all the way down. I can remember even in mid summer and the shallower water at times being very warm just how cold that water was down at that 20 ft level even in mid summer.

When we fish we experience that same difference of temps and it is one of the reasons we find the fish holding at those depths we are targeting as the water is at a more preferred temp and oxygen level and the reason they are hanging there to begin with.

So depending on so many variables can change what we need to do and each situation is different. The more minners, the smaller the containment vessel and the longer we want to keep the minners alive and healthy all play a role and things like water ammonia levels, water ph, temps and oxygen levels all have a bearing and an effect.

Trial and error along with learning, researching the needs and preferable ranges for the types of minners you want to keep will get you going on the right path.

Like I have said it is not black magic only applied science and each persons needs or circumstances could influence the amount of steps and how often they need to apply those steps to keep their bait healthy.

Again this is just my opinion and experience for my own applications.

[Benton B]

So can someone give some guidance on specifically what to do to keep minners longer please?

Sure – But this is not your common Bro-Science... Fast forward to the Modern Era 2018, enter aquaculture science, the real deal: Harvesting, Holding and Handling [live bait fish and fish] https://fisheries.tamu.edu/aquacultu...g-and-hauling/ (28 scientific publication) Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Aquaculture, Fisheries, & Pond Manage. There’s so much more fishery science published on this topic available too with a little quick click.

My Grandpa would not be impressed with all this fish science because he is perfectly happy with his bait tank, a 5 gallon plastic bucked that works fine for him. His summer live bait kill is high, but that’s OK, that’s normal for the summer.

Grandpa makes me laugh often, he is my fishing buddy and like many older fishermen set in their ways, he also scoffs modern bait transport technologies produced in this, the modern age and prefers the Bro-Science he learned from his Dad.

As for fishing, he is and will always be a meat-hunter. He’s a simple old man, not a sport fisherman nor trophy fisherman. He is frugal, not cheap. He drives a 1954 Ford truck he bought new, his bait tank is a plastic 5 gallon pickle bucket he bought at Berger King for $0.25, and a uses a portable Mr. Bubbles air pump $5.00. I was able to talk him into adding some salt after a few years to aid osmoregulation… like many old timers he also stocks his bait tank with a hand full of minnows. In the summer, half the minnows are better crab bait than fish bait, but that’s OK, he just hooks up a dead one and keeps on fishing and that works fine for him… he’s fine with that too.

Grandpa tells me, “live bait is what meat hunters use for fish bait, that's the best fish bait if you goal is to put meat in the box." He says, "sport fishers use fake baits because live bait is too hard to keep alive and doesn’t catch fish like good quality live bait.”

He’s old and set in his ways, but I believe history demonstrates and proves that he’s got that right.

[vfourmax]

Sure – But this is not your common Bro-Science... Fast forward to the Modern Era 2018, enter aquaculture science, the real deal: Harvesting, Holding and Handling [live bait fish and fish] https://fisheries.tamu.edu/aquacultu...g-and-hauling/ (28 scientific publication) Texas A&M AgriLife Extension Aquaculture, Fisheries, & Pond Manage. There’s so much more fishery science published on this topic available too with a little quick click.

My Grandpa would not be impressed with all this fish science because he is perfectly happy with his bait tank, a 5 gallon plastic bucked that works fine for him. His summer live bait kill is high, but that’s OK, that’s normal for the summer.

Grandpa makes me laugh often, he is my fishing buddy and like many older fishermen set in their ways, he also scoffs modern bait transport technologies produced in this, the modern age and prefers the Bro-Science he learned from his Dad.

As for fishing, he is and will always be a meat-hunter. He’s a simple old man, not a sport fisherman nor trophy fisherman. He is frugal, not cheap. He drives a 1954 Ford truck he bought new, his bait tank is a plastic 5 gallon pickle bucket he bought at Berger King for $0.25, and a uses a portable Mr. Bubbles air pump $5.00. I was able to talk him into adding some salt after a few years to aid osmoregulation… like many old timers he also stocks his bait tank with a hand full of minnows. In the summer, half the minnows are better crab bait than fish bait, but that’s OK, he just hooks up a dead one and keeps on fishing and that works fine for him… he’s fine with that too.

Grandpa tells me, “live bait is what meat hunters use for fish bait, that's the best fish bait if you goal is to put meat in the box." He says, "sport fishers use fake baits because live bait is too hard to keep alive and doesn’t catch fish like good quality live bait.”

He’s old and set in his ways, but I believe history demonstrates and proves that he’s got that right.

Currently, the only additives recommended for food fish transport
are food grade salts. Sodium chloride -- table
salt -- is the most common. An 8 g/l (0.8%) salt solution made with table salt (sodium chloride) would
match the sodium content of blood.
In combination with handling stress, salt
concentrations 10 g/l (1.0%) or greater could be
harmful to fish during live transport
Therefore, it would be advisable to use transport
solutions containing less than 9 g/l salt.

Shiners haul well in salt solutions of less than 0.2 percent. (from pub SRAC #393)

Oxygen not water temperature or salt level, is the main culprit in fish death in the livewell or in catch-related stress. However, livewell water temperature is a main determinant of how much oxygen can be made available to fish and how quickly they will utilize what’s available.

The maximum amount of dissolved oxygen in water is called its saturation level. Saturation level decrease as the temperature of the water increases. For example, at 70 degrees, water saturates at 8.9 parts per million (ppm). At 80 degrees, saturation is achieved at 8.0 ppm, and at 90 degrees only 7.3 ppm. At higher temperatures, fish metabolism also increases and they use oxygen faster. Therefore, at 80 degrees, oxygen concentrations below 5.0 ppm may prove quickly fatal.

Oxygen, not water temperature or salt level, is the main culprit in fish death in the livewell or in catch-related stress. However, livewell water temperature is a main determinant of how much oxygen can be made available to fish and how quickly they will utilize what’s available.


Standard livewell aeration systems simply cannot keep up with this oxygen demand. A recirculating aeration system will raise the oxygen level in a 15-gallon livewell from 3 ppm to 7 ppm in about eight minutes when the water is 60 degrees. It will take about 14 minutes at 70 degrees. At 85 degrees, a standard livewell system simply cannot get to 7 ppm.
With several fish in the livewell, a standard livewell system is not able to keep the oxygen level above stressful limits that may prove fatal, or will certainly create stress on the fish that may not be recoverable – almost certainly leading to delayed fish mortality.

Regardless of how many publications or reports you read you will find differing professional opinions or results from the testing.

Just like the salt is not the "cure all" and optimum salt levels vary widely between species of fish. What level of salt in the water may be beneficial to one fish may well cause another breed extreme distress.

The articles say in one point that a .8 level of salt is good and safe but yet another place in the same linked articles claims for shiners a salt concentration of .2 percent is preferred.

Water temp again variations have positive and negative effects some fish tolerate different temps better than others while one fish may be fine in 80 degree water another may perish.

One thing I think that is very plain is that oxygen saturation in the water is lower at higher water temps.

So the so called "Fast forward to the Modern Era 2018, enter aquaculture science, the real deal:" and the associated linked articles and publications still does not supply the average guy the answers as to how to keep his minners alive longer in his bucket on his boat deck.

The articles and publications linked are still just as I previously posted comparing apples to oranges as the information is mainly geared to using commercial equipment and techniques and in many cases referencing fish such as catfish or carp and may or may not apply to baitfish as written.
They talk about not feeding the fish for a couple of days before transport and that is fine in a commercial operation but the guy picking up his minnows from the bait store on his way to the lake does not have that luxury.
Again it seems salt can be a useful additive if the proper research is done as to the levels that would be beneficial to the exact species of fish that the water is being treated for. But the same goes for the waters ph and ammonia levels and yes even temperature and oxygen levels. In the end it all falls under the same heading of water quality period.

As I have previously said knowledge is good and perhaps if you raised your minnows at home where you could control all the variables including feeding before your fishing trip and were using commercial types of transport vessels then you could more control what you were taking out on the boat.

I will say that I cannot once ever remember when buying bait even in the dog days of summer that the water in the bait dealers tank was anything but nice and cool and never felt warm to the touch.

Give me a choice of my bait being kept in cooler water under 80 degrees or 85+ degree water and adding some salt and I will use my Bro-Science bottle of frozen water every time. Bet my minnows are in better shape as well.

You can even look further up in my post and use your modern science to compare oxygen saturation levels at different water temps to understand the common sense method of why using a frozen bottle of water will probably provide more benefit than a little salt. It is not going to live if it cannot breathe.

Maybe after it dies though you do already have a jump on the salt curing process of the dead fish. I guess that is an advantage.

Grandpa is not always as unknowing as you want to believe.

[Benton B]

Currently, the only additives recommended for food fish transport
are food grade salts. Sodium chloride -- table
salt -- is the most common. An 8 g/l (0.8%) salt solution made with table salt (sodium chloride) would
match the sodium content of blood.
In combination with handling stress, salt
concentrations 10 g/l (1.0%) or greater could be
harmful to fish during live transport
Therefore, it would be advisable to use transport
solutions containing less than 9 g/l salt.

Shiners haul well in salt solutions of less than 0.2 percent. (from pub SRAC #393)

Oxygen not water temperature or salt level, is the main culprit in fish death in the livewell or in catch-related stress. However, livewell water temperature is a main determinant of how much oxygen can be made available to fish and how quickly they will utilize what’s available.

The maximum amount of dissolved oxygen in water is called its saturation level. Saturation level decrease as the temperature of the water increases. For example, at 70 degrees, water saturates at 8.9 parts per million (ppm). At 80 degrees, saturation is achieved at 8.0 ppm, and at 90 degrees only 7.3 ppm. At higher temperatures, fish metabolism also increases and they use oxygen faster. Therefore, at 80 degrees, oxygen concentrations below 5.0 ppm may prove quickly fatal.

Oxygen, not water temperature or salt level, is the main culprit in fish death in the livewell or in catch-related stress. However, livewell water temperature is a main determinant of how much oxygen can be made available to fish and how quickly they will utilize what’s available.


Standard livewell aeration systems simply cannot keep up with this oxygen demand. A recirculating aeration system will raise the oxygen level in a 15-gallon livewell from 3 ppm to 7 ppm in about eight minutes when the water is 60 degrees. It will take about 14 minutes at 70 degrees. At 85 degrees, a standard livewell system simply cannot get to 7 ppm.
With several fish in the livewell, a standard livewell system is not able to keep the oxygen level above stressful limits that may prove fatal, or will certainly create stress on the fish that may not be recoverable – almost certainly leading to delayed fish mortality.

Regardless of how many publications or reports you read you will find differing professional opinions or results from the testing.

Just like the salt is not the "cure all" and optimum salt levels vary widely between species of fish. What level of salt in the water may be beneficial to one fish may well cause another breed extreme distress.

The articles say in one point that a .8 level of salt is good and safe but yet another place in the same linked articles claims for shiners a salt concentration of .2 percent is preferred.

Water temp again variations have positive and negative effects some fish tolerate different temps better than others while one fish may be fine in 80 degree water another may perish.

One thing I think that is very plain is that oxygen saturation in the water is lower at higher water temps.

So the so called "Fast forward to the Modern Era 2018, enter aquaculture science, the real deal:" and the associated linked articles and publications still does not supply the average guy the answers as to how to keep his minners alive longer in his bucket on his boat deck.

The articles and publications linked are still just as I previously posted comparing apples to oranges as the information is mainly geared to using commercial equipment and techniques and in many cases referencing fish such as catfish or carp and may or may not apply to baitfish as written.
They talk about not feeding the fish for a couple of days before transport and that is fine in a commercial operation but the guy picking up his minnows from the bait store on his way to the lake does not have that luxury.
Again it seems salt can be a useful additive if the proper research is done as to the levels that would be beneficial to the exact species of fish that the water is being treated for. But the same goes for the waters ph and ammonia levels and yes even temperature and oxygen levels. In the end it all falls under the same heading of water quality period.

As I have previously said knowledge is good and perhaps if you raised your minnows at home where you could control all the variables including feeding before your fishing trip and were using commercial types of transport vessels then you could more control what you were taking out on the boat.

I will say that I cannot once ever remember when buying bait even in the dog days of summer that the water in the bait dealers tank was anything but nice and cool and never felt warm to the touch.

Give me a choice of my bait being kept in cooler water under 80 degrees or 85+ degree water and adding some salt and I will use my Bro-Science bottle of frozen water every time. Bet my minnows are in better shape as well.

You can even look further up in my post and use your modern science to compare oxygen saturation levels at different water temps to understand the common sense method of why using a frozen bottle of water will probably provide more benefit than a little salt. It is not going to live if it cannot breathe.

Maybe after it dies though you do already have a jump on the salt curing process of the dead fish. I guess that is an advantage.

Grandpa is not always as unknowing as you want to believe.

But, Grandpa forgets to zip his pants up a lot too, we old dogs know exactly why/how that works too. Like “an old man in his dotage,” so to speak. Actually, he may forget intentionally sometimes. Nana is concerned about Grandpas gilding getting out when the gate’s open and getting into trouble. We laugh a lot.

“Conservation of salt” Now that’s definitely original thinking out-of-the-box… who in the world would ever think of anything like this? I’m impressed and still smiling!

This is for all live baiters that do have problems in the summer with bait quality and keeping minnows healthy a few hours in bait tanks… more fishery science for fishermen interested is the newer methods and technology to haul live minnows in the summer. I doubt seriously that any fake baiter would be interested this.

If you use live bait and you are a tournament Sacalait fisherman and really want to avoid the “dead fish” punishment in summer tournaments, you might get a jingle out of this TP&WD opinion. No Bro-science here.

Keeping Bass Alive in Hot Weather, Tournament anglers encouraged to consider oxygen injection in livewells https://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/rel...?req=20110615b June 15, 2011, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, Department of Inland Fisheries, San Antonio, Texas - News Release Media Contact: If you would like more information, contact: Larry Hodge, 903-676-2277, email - [email protected] https://tpwd.texas.gov/newsmedia/rel...?req=20110615b

Yes, there are many opinions, there’s Bro-science, new aquaculture science and old outdated aquaculture science and all sport fishermen have opinions about what does not work well and what really works well keeping minnow and fish alive and healthy in captivity and live transports in the heat of summer.

Dogs - Some dog lovers buy Ball Park dogs, Oscar Mayer Classic dogs, Applegate dogs and other like myself buy Hebrew National dogs which are more expensive, but Hebrew National kosher dogs are worth any additional cost for the quality in my opinion.

“To each his own” so they say in America since 1713. That is unless you’re down and out and live under a bridge or worse yet, a discarded street kid living in Rio de Janeiro.

There is no judgement or criticism towards anyone choice, I like to have choices. I’m not Jewish and I personally like/buy Hebrew National Brand Dogs and I’m certainly willing to pay the additional money just for the quality, but that’s just me and my personal choice of dogs.

[vfourmax]

This is for all live baiters that do have problems in the summer with bait quality and keeping minnows healthy a few hours in bait tanks… more fishery science for fishermen interested is the newer methods and technology to haul live minnows in the summer. I doubt seriously that any fake baiter would be interested this.

If you use live bait and you are a tournament Sacalait fisherman and really want to avoid the “dead fish” punishment in summer tournaments, you might get a jingle out of this TP&WD opinion. No Bro-science here.

Keeping Bass Alive in Hot Weather, Tournament anglers encouraged to consider oxygen injection in livewells

Yes, there are many opinions, there’s Bro-science, new aquaculture science and old outdated aquaculture science and all sport fishermen have opinions about what does not work well and what really works well keeping minnow and fish alive and healthy in captivity and live transports in the heat of summer.

And just what part of this is newly introduced information to this thread,this one was from my post #28 in this thread,

I have seen and read about boat livewell systems starting to be used that inject pure oxygen in the water, separate "ice bins" with metal tubing coiled within that the live well water is pumped through the tubes packed in the ice to cool the water

This one I actually put it into post #38 two times so it would hopefully get its point across.

Oxygen not water temperature or salt level, is the main culprit in fish death in the livewell or in catch-related stress. However, livewell water temperature is a main determinant of how much oxygen can be made available to fish and how quickly they will utilize what’s available.

Then we go to this one from post #38 as well which points out the difference in replenishing oxygen levels at different temperatures which clearly shows that cooler water is easier to keep oxygenated over warmer water.

The maximum amount of dissolved oxygen in water is called its saturation level. Saturation level decrease as the temperature of the water increases. For example, at 70 degrees, water saturates at 8.9 parts per million (ppm). At 80 degrees, saturation is achieved at 8.0 ppm, and at 90 degrees only 7.3 ppm. At higher temperatures, fish metabolism also increases and they use oxygen faster. Therefore, at 80 degrees, oxygen concentrations below 5.0 ppm may prove quickly fatal.

During this whole conversation I have repeatedly discussed water temps, water oxygen levels and actually mentioned many other areas of water quality including PH, ammonia levels, bacteria and we must remember the CO2 levels.

Meanwhile your new science fix had mainly been limited to adding salt. Even there I pointed out that how much salt depended on the species of fish being introduced to the treated water something you failed to ever include in the conversation.

None of this is so called " 2018 NEW SCIENCE" or anything that has not been known and understood for decades. The only difference was grandpa just keeping it simple accepted the fact that a certain percentage of the minnows in his "bucket" with no cooling or infused aeration to the water that he would lose a certain percentage of the bait to death.

Even back in post #28 I made reference to the fact that if I were a tournament fisherman then I would invest deeper into bait health here,

For myself the ice bottles and aerator has always been sufficient but if I was tournament fishing trying to cash multiple thousands of dollars in prize checks then my bait be the healthiest absolutely as lively as humanly possible would probably have me putting forth a little more effort where even the water temps would be constantly monitored with a thermostat and the water tested as needed to maintain that bait!

So now that we have clarified that you have not really added or offered nothing new with your last couple of post, went now from pushing salt to oxygen levels which had been previously well covered and now are promoting using or investing several hundreds of dollars into an oxygen inducing system for an insulated bait bucket what was what this conversation started about unless I am wrong the average guy will stick with his mr bubbles, throw in a bottle or so of frozen water on the really hot days and accept they may lose a few bait fish as a cost of keeping things simple and affordable.

Again none of this is new information that has not been around for decades. As I also pointed out anyone that has ever had a decent home aquarium set up knows a lot about what is required to keep a fish healthy.

So one more time it is not black magic nor rocket science and it sure is not new information. Big time serious home aquarium users have been using oxygen systems and tank chillers for decades!

I am now done with this conversation.