thanks fellas...what i poured lastnite is setting up fine...its still green but in a few days i will be able to pop it out..i drill 1in holes around the base of the 4in pipe..it ought to stay if it sets up...dont think the other 3 bags had enough portland in it..seemed mostly sand and gravel..i do thank you all for your help...after i do a few hundred i recon i'll have it figured out...