Dying drying lakes

[GRIZZ]

I just read this article and thought it might be interesting to get some input from this group that is spread all across the US. I know in my neck of the woods I have watched lake Erie's water level continue to drop over the last 10 yrs. I don't know exactly how far it has dropped, but its at least somewhere around 3 feet and it never comes back up.

I'm not a global warming alarmist by any measure. I think people like Al Gore make the facts fit what they think as opposed to being interested in whats really happening. I laughed when they gave him the Nobel. Its my opinion that what is happening to the world now is a naturally occurring fluctuation in the weather and environment, but thats just my observation and opinion of the people who are screaming global warming. Have you noticed that the catch phrase has changed from global warming to climate change recently?

Anyways, these stories are a bit alarming and I'm interested in your local perspectives.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/110949?g=1

http://www.newsweek.com/id/110958?g=1

[GRIZZ]

Here is a graph from the EPA on Lake Erie water levels. I guess this is a good example of perception(mine in particular) being effected by the opinions of the media. From the looks of this graph the lake levels have been fluctuating not much more than a couple feet in 90 yrs, and in general have gone up a little in the last 50, but are in a low phase right now which may account for my observations.

http://www.epa.gov/med/grosseile_sit...aterlevels.gif

[Dickieboy]

My opinions are much like yours. I feel the same way as you about Gore and many others in respect to the ‘global warning panic’. It is laughable. I also agree that the climate change is a natural cycle and we are currently in a warming trend. Thirty years ago, mid seventies, it was claimed that we were progressing into a new ice age.

I do feel however that Gore (etal) makes an undeniable point concerning our addiction to fossil fuels. There IS a finite amount of these on our planet and their production is not within our current knowledge. We must figure a way around or through this issue.

Man has progressed from living in caves to the luxury we enjoy today. The technology is advancing at an exponential rate. So much so that one cannot predict the progress we can make in the next decade. Surely in the immediate future we can come up with a means to power our society more efficiently.

It has been claimed that if we used ALL the corn and soybeans grown in the U.S. to produce ethanol and biodiesel it would only satisfy 20% of our current consumption. I question this but even if there calculations are 100% wrong it would still only cover 40% of our needs. There are also claims that the energy it takes to produce a gallon of ethanol is greater that the energy contained in the ethanol. I do know from crude calculations during a personal interest in homebrewing ethanol these claims seem to be founded.

Some have an alternate theory on the increased carbon dioxide issue. That being that it is essentially a fertilizer for plant life on the planet. When viewed on this theory the increase in CO2 is effectively accelerating the natural process by which the environment converts CO2 to O2. I don’t know if this is true but the theory has logic.

Just rambling thoughts because you asked.

[GRIZZ]

Thats just what I'm looking for besides peoples observations on their lakes. I think fuel cells and hydrogen technology and maybe even fusion, and other renewable energy sources are going to make the ethanol problem you discussed moot though.

[kygorski]

Maybe iy isn't global warming, but there is a climate change occuring, and its NOT natural.The great lakes are a prime example of what WE are causing.Its more of an urban crawl issue.Lets just use common sense here. Twmty years ago, when I lived and worked close to lake michigan,that lakes water was used locally, within twenty miles of the lake, since then that same water has been piped almost 50 miles to places that never had people living there,and these are high usage areas, great big lawns, four bathroom houses, returants shopping centers, you namenit and its thre or being built,and folks are driving back to the urban area to work. My son in law moved 55 miles from where he worked 15 yra ago,that town has trippled in size, there normal wells werenot able todeliver the needed watwer, so the town, signed a contract, with the town nort of it, to get lake michigan water. This is happening all over the country, and for some strange reason, folks cant figure out what is happening, its simple, there are MORE of us,and most of us just take for granted the fact that there will always be plenty of water, whre is it going to come from? here in my area of ky, more watwer is being diverted from the corp lake than was 15 yrs ago, because more folks are moving here, and its all over the country, my nephew sent uspictures of thiernew home in new mexico, nice lawn,nice new community, but NO new water supply. Yes there is a change coming, and we are causing it,remember in school, that action, and reaction thing we scoffed at,well?

[kygorski]

things like this get me really steamed. this "I'm OK, you're OK" mentality is going to end somewhere. I'm OK for now, my 2.8% cost of living in social security, justmakes me want to scream, if the cost of living only went up that much, why has health insurance{private} gone up 6 %, fuel more than 10 percent, and on and on.Figures dont lie, liars figure.

[lag]

Well, I guess I'll get in the middle of this fray with my two cents. I agree that there has been a drought lately that is severe in some places. Just fifty or so miles south of me some of the lakes are at record lows but the Cumberland has managed to not suffer so bad. I look out in my back yard and it is up about 3 or 4 feet from normal moving the recent rainfall down to the Ohio. I'm not sure whether man is contributing significantly to the climate problem or not, but I tend to beleive that it is mostly natural. I've put in some time since I retired looking at this and the natural changes throughout history are phenominal. I remember back in the middle seventies, I think, when newsweek, time etc all had front pages with the global cooling scare. Some of the same people who said that we were all going to freeze are saying we are all going to drown from the polar caps thawing. I went back and found an article, and I think it was also in newsweek, where a lot of the scientists/experts were wanting to dump millions of tons of coal dust on both poles to help hold in the heat of the sun to increase the temp. Can you imagine what it would be like now if we had done that?

I have come to the conclusion that the experts don't know enough to really know what they are doing. Most of the global warming conclusions are based on the last 10 to 15 years and to me that seems like it would be looking at a millisecond in the total time of the world. Not much of a time slice on which to base a theory. As far as the lack of rain, I just look back at the 30's and the dust bowl. There have always been droughts and floods and everything in between. I saw an interview with a climatologist on the weather channel and he said the problem in the southeast the last couple of years was that there was not enough hurricaines. The southeast traditionally relied on at least a couple a year to come through the gulf and dump a lot of rain in the summer. After that year with the record number of really bad ones they have virtually stopped. Go figure. As far as the Colorado, there is only a finite amount of water in that area on a good year and the population keeps increasing. What to do?

Having said that, I also remember pictures when I was a kid in the 50's showing the industrial waste being dumped into the great lakes. That was really a mess and it was all man made, so we can have an adverse impact. Thank God we got our act together and stopped that. Nature has healed itself and is going on.

I think it is great to debate this stuff and get other peoples opinion, especially since it has an effect on us and our crappie fishing.

[popeyemaker]

I read somewhere recently that there have been more people born since 1950 than there were in all of history up to that point

[kygorski]

I to look at the cumberland river everyday, or almost, even fish it quite a bit.Last summer, due to human cause, and a drought, there were places ankle deep, that were usually 5f deep, today theyare 8ft deep, thats natural spring time on a man made structure, normally.BUT, that dam, was considered a waiting disaster and so man who made it is fixing it.Great! except since they needed to hold back the water, once they reached thier desired depth,they needed to drain dale hollow, to keep the cumberland flowing to the ohio, and down stream,dale was dry in places never seen in forty yrs, and its still at record lows, some of this is natural because of the drought, but much of it is US.I know we can never go back to my good old days,but I'm glad to have lived in them. Yes tons of toxic waste were drained into the great lakes,by industry, that industry, which is why i still have a lot of my pension, is mostly gone. A river that was so poluted in my youth, now has salmon and trout fishing in it.The water is very clear, but again, we had something to do withit, zebra muscles are the main cause of ther water clarity,then came the exoctic fish, maybe you have seen pictures of those flying carp,I have witnessed it. those were never native here,we brought them, why?who knows.But they are efecting that river, and moving north and south, and they do have a damaging effect on natural fish.The more of there are the more we have an effect on this planet, there is only a finite amount of usable known resources, when we use them, then what?. Dont talk about hydrogen cars,that is almost a myth.Its like tuirning oil into coal science at present. I ran a hydrogen plant for yrs, and its turning one fuel source into another fuel source using vast amounts of energy.When the fuel cell is developed, believe me, they wont be using them for recreational water craft.

[fished-out]

I do not believe that what we are beginning to experience is a natural cycle; it's far too accelerated. It is correct to look at long lengths of time (think thousands of years, perhaps millions, rather than decades) to put current events in perspective and attempt to determine if they are part of a natural cycle or man-made. I doubt that the fluncuation in Lake Erie is man-made; on the other hand, I also doubt that the CO2 readings we now have are natural. The facts--industrial and auto emissions are rising around the world; while we have cars and manufacturing plants that do not pollute water and air as much as they did decades ago, CO2 is a natural by-product of combustion, and there's no doubt, given the expansion in the world's economy and population, that the world has added both cars and manfacturing plants. China, India, Russia--all are expanding rapidly. Bejing adds approximately 1000 cars per day--every day. Both China and India have more than a billion people--all of whom hope to have what we have. Their rate of economic growth triples ours, increasing their demand for energy and therefore fossils fuels--more CO2. Want to know why the US pollutes less? Yes, we've taken steps to mitigate polution, but alot of our manufacturing capacity is now overseas; China's polution is worsening rapidly as they attempt to supply our needs.

Someone stated that CO2 is the building block that plants use to grow and generate O2 in the process. This is true; however, while the US slowly reforests, Brazil and other parts of the world clear-cut large tracts of land, and tropical forests are far more efficient than northern forests in acting as a CO2 trap.

In general, I do not believe you can continue to increase the amount of CO2 generated while decreasing the CO2 trapping ability of the world without consequences. More pragmatically, I do not like pouring my hard-earned dollars into places like the middle east or certain other countries determined to hold us hostage to our energy needs.

Also, I do not believe you can continue to drain the aquifers in and around states like Calif. and other western states without having an impact on the rest of the country. How many golf courses should there be in Arizona? What about Florida? With the increase in population and water-intensive farming, their water needs are outstripping their supply, affecting the Everglades. Of course, it may be moot; if sea levels continue to rise (and they are rising, a few inches a year, as the polar caps melt), in a hundred years Florida will be underwater anyway. Have doubts? There are those who believe the famed "northern passage" will be a reality in the next 20 years.

I am not a tree-hugger. I'm pragmatic as they come and I do not believe doom is right around the corner. I do, however, believe we need to take concrete steps, over time, to mitigate our impact via smarter use of fossil fuels and water. In short, I believe in what I can see, and I see impacts around me that I can not explain away as cyclical anomalies.

Gosh, the above is beginning to sound like a rant. Sorry 'bout that.