Fish Identification ????

[Cane Pole]

Jeff White and I were discussing black and white crappie identification while out Sunday fishing. We caught several that were hard to identify. I usually count the dorsal fins. However, several fish looked like the first dorsal had two spikes (hard spine) on it. These were small fishes and not really any distinguishing body marks. I know that the whites have the same number of spikes on the dorsal and anal fins, where the blacks may or may not have the same count. I know that the white males “darken up” during the spawn whereas the black males do not change color. I often wonder if this is how they identify themselves during the spawn.

Another thing is the fact that I have caught both species in a known spawning area. I think this may be weather related, but I am not sure. I believe this may have caused some cross pollination ( kinda). Not sure about this. I ain’t ever seen fish, uh,,,you know what I mean here.. I don’t know crap about fish DNA.

Anyone ever experience this, and, if so, what is your take on it?

Tom

[eddiebhome]

Hey CP,

Most of what I catch in Lake Logan Martin here in Alabama are black crappie, though occasionally I'll see a white, or at least what looks like a white to me. Those whites I've seen have very distinctive "banding" on their sides. There are probably exceptions and since I haven't ever counted the spines, I may have caught more whites than I think. I don't think I've ever looked closely at the first dorsal spine to see if it has two spikes on it. Guess I'll look the next time I get out.

This might help.
According to Alabama's DOC&NR:

http://www.outdooralabama.com/Fishin...crappie/black/

"Three characteristics easily distinguish black and white crappie. Black crappie have seven to eight dorsal spines; white crappie usually have six. The dorsal fin base on black crappie is equal to or slightly longer than the distance from the rear margin of the eye to the origin of the dorsal fin base; the dorsal fin base is shorter on white crappie. Finally, the sides of white crappie have eight to 10 vertical, dark gray reticulated bands that are lacking on black crappie. Other distinguishing characteristics of the black crappie include 35 to 41 lateral line scales, 14 to 16 dorsal rays, five to seven anal spines, and 16 to 19 rays. The back is usually light gray to light lime green. The sides and venter are lime green with a silvery sheen. Dark mottling is scattered across the body. The dorsal, caudal, and anal fins have several alternating light and dark wavy bands. See Cuvier and Valenciennes (1829) for original description."

Cheers,
Eddie

[Fishn N Wishn]

Try here has Pics to show I seen this from a post I posted on here other day.Has pics to show you maybe this will help you out.

[Jerry Blake]

Hey Tom:

Here the males of both white and black crappie get real dark during the spawn. Usually it's real easy to see the vertical bar pattern on the white crappie but I know that crappie out of very stained water may not have much markings at all. Counting the dorsal spines is the easiest way to tell the difference. All the white crappie I've counted dorsal spines on had 6 although it is said that they may only have 5. All the black crappie I've counted dorsal spines on had 7 although it is said that they may have 8. Our white crappie are generally longer and leaner and our black crappie are generally thicker and heavier for their length. It’s not unusual to catch both species in the same area.

Here’s a pretty good comparison. The white crappie (on the left) isn’t nearly as heavy bodied as the black crappie (on the right) even though they are about the same length.

They can hybridize in the wild and every now and then we catch one that has the markings and body build typical of black crappie but only 6 dorsal spines and I'm pretty sure they are hybrids. Usually the "specks" on their sides are larger and sort of fuzzy too.

This is one:

[Cane Pole]

These may be hybrids Jerry. I know it happens in the test tanks with white female crappie and black male crappie. That is what I think may be going on here and is why we were having trouble identifying the rascals. I an not sure.

They eat good. haha

I was always under the impression that only white males turned colors during the spawn. I read this somewhere. Long time ago too.

I didn't have my camera with me. Afraid Jeff would break it.

[crappielimits]

I to think you are catching hybrid crappie. Yes we only have black crappie in Talquin and during the spawn they get black as smut! We also have crappie with a black stripe all the way down their nose and mouth! We call them mustangs, but some people call them blacknose! I want one 3 pounds for the wall, but the biggest I have caught is 1.75 or so.

[Team9nine]

Jeff White and I were discussing black and white crappie identification while out Sunday fishing. We caught several that were hard to identify. I usually count the dorsal fins. However, several fish looked like the first dorsal had two spikes (hard spine) on it. These were small fishes and not really any distinguishing body marks. I know that the whites have the same number of spikes on the dorsal and anal fins, where the blacks may or may not have the same count. I know that the white males “darken up” during the spawn whereas the black males do not change color. I often wonder if this is how they identify themselves during the spawn.

Another thing is the fact that I have caught both species in a known spawning area. I think this may be weather related, but I am not sure. I believe this may have caused some cross pollination ( kinda). Not sure about this. I ain’t ever seen fish, uh,,,you know what I mean here.. I don’t know crap about fish DNA.

Anyone ever experience this, and, if so, what is your take on it?

Tom

Tom,

Numerous studies have documented hybridization between black and white crappies. It is common though not extensive. In Illinios they only found 5% of all crappies tested as hybrids. In Alabama, that number runs as high as 21% and in Georgia, I've seen 40% for a given lake. There are many lakes where the number is zero though.

There is no surefire way to visually recognize a hybrid. In studies they have to use gel electrophoresis or some similar technique to determine degree of hybridization. Part of the problem stems from the different dominance in genes contributed from the parent. For example, in a hybrid the black crappie dorsal count is dominant but the white crappie nape length is dominant. To add to the confusion, local environmental conditions can change this dominance pattern.

Some other interesting facts include growth and reproductive abilities. First year hybrid crappie (F1's) show superior growth rates compared to either parent. They also tend to show up in a popualtion as much as 7X more abundant than any 2nd or 3rd, etc. generation hybrid. This suggests that the hybrid, while not sterile probably has some negative reproductive capacity as compared to either parental stock. Additionally, it appears that the black crappie parent is more times than not the successful backcross stock as compared to whites. In other words, a hybrid if it does successfully reproduce will most likely cross back with a black crappie and not a white.

Hopefully this answers some of your questions. Looks like you might need to add some mobile DNA lab equipment to your boat in addition to all your other electronic devices if you can find the room :D

-T9

[joejv4]

Jerry pretty much covered my 2¢ - except that he didn't elaborate on the spring color change as much as I would have - All we have around here is black crappie, and the males get to looking like they've been playing in a coal bin during the spawn. The females keep their lighter color (silver or gold-ish with black speckles). The females also tend to be larger than the males (at least that's what we see around here). Biggest clue is the number of spines on the dorsal & anal fins. 7 or eight (like Jerry, I've only ever seen them with 7) means black crappie.

[Cane Pole]

I'm not much on fish genre. I still believe in what my Gramps taught me and this is all probably based more on lore than facts.

I very seldom try to analyze fishes race, color or creed. I just catch 'em, fillet 'em , cook 'em, and eat 'em.

You understand all this stuff Jeff?

[Darryl Morris]

I'm not much on fish genre. I still believe in what my Gramps taught me and this is all probably based more on lore than facts.

I very seldom try to analyze fishes race, color or creed. I just catch 'em, fillet 'em , cook 'em, and eat 'em.

You understand all this stuff Jeff?

They all do look alike don't they once you get their clothes off, lol. I like what Jerry calls it when the males turn dark during the spawn -- "Putt'in on the tuxedo to court the ladies." He seems to get all excited and can't wait to pitch that jig in there over and over.