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ESBguy
06-21-2018, 04:16 PM
Well, folks, today's Supreme Court decision may have put me out of business.

There are some 12,000 sales taxing jurisdictions in the US. I'm just a little guy, I can't deal with that.

We'll see what develops, but it don't look good.

Slab
06-21-2018, 04:32 PM
This is definitely not good news for us small guys. We're never gonna be able to keep track of all the jurisdictions and what percentage we'd have to pay them. But the good news is, this was a case involving South Dakota, and they were only gonna tax companies selling more than $100,000 of stuff in their state. We can only hope all the other states follow suit limiting it to big companies. But if there's money to be had, and the guberment is involved, you know they are gonna stick their hands in our pockets for sure. I'm actually surprised it took them this long.

Slab
06-21-2018, 04:34 PM
Oh, one more thing, lets not make this a political conversation. It's simply a guberment taxation conversation.

ESBguy
06-21-2018, 04:55 PM
The source I was reading seemed to say the decision might cover single sales and be retroactive. I hope you're right, Slab.

2boatjoe
06-21-2018, 04:59 PM
If they where retroactive they would bankrupt many small businesses so I don't see that happening. I do see many of the smaller online retailers going out of business if they can't afford the new sales tax software that they will need. It won't take long for someone to have a free or cheap app that you can get to handle just sales tax.

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Alphahawk
06-21-2018, 06:10 PM
I read the opinion and I do not see where it will hurt small guys that sell online. The opinion stated that the tax cannot be collected retro and the difference was noted between big and small online retailers. Now if you were Wayfair or Overstock there is reason for concern...or other big online retailers.

Regards

Snubby
06-21-2018, 06:24 PM
I say give the little man a break for a change, let's tax these big corporations and make them pay their dues, they can afford it. See it all the time running a small business everyone gets a break, immigrant business owners, big corporate, non profits etc. About time the working man stops carrying the load with little to show for it, let the ones who are all for big government (we can take in any stray from anywhere) support big government with their money for a change :twocents

Cane Pole
06-21-2018, 08:03 PM
I believe the governments is needing mo money. I believe the govts oughta tax tweets. Penny a tweet would pay off the national debt in no time.

2boatjoe
06-21-2018, 08:09 PM
Lmao

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jigflinger
06-21-2018, 08:12 PM
I believe the governments is needing mo money. I believe the govts oughta tax tweets. Penny a tweet would pay off the national debt in no time.
That's a heck of an idea, Tom. But way too simple for the gubment.

Slab
06-22-2018, 07:00 AM
Cane Pole for president. Oh wait, I said no politics. Hopefully "G" don't see this and delete me! lol :pray

tnduxcaller
06-22-2018, 07:03 AM
Here in TN we have a state sales tax of around 10%. We do not have a state income tax. Amazon has lot of fullfillment centers here in TN and I am pretty sure they do not have to pay state sales tax.

vfourmax
06-22-2018, 08:03 AM
Here in TN we have a state sales tax of around 10%. We do not have a state income tax. Amazon has lot of fullfillment centers here in TN and I am pretty sure they do not have to pay state sales tax.

Even in the past it has always been that if a business had a physical presence in the state that they business collected the sales taxes for all sales to that state. Now with the new law the business will have to collect sales taxes from all customers regardless of state and remit those taxes to the appropriate state government.

Most businesses I buy from on a more regular or frequent basis already tax my state so I will not see a lot of change. Also if there is a product I want the difference in paying sales tax will not be a deciding factor whether I purchase or not. Most things I buy online are either not available locally or if they are not at the same pricing structures as it can be obtained online.

I also am shocked it took them so long to get their hooks into another source of income to add to the wasteful ways they spend taxpayer generated funds.

Hanr3
06-22-2018, 08:18 AM
I thought the ruling was for state sales tax.
The local gubment is SOL.
That being the case, it's only 50 states. Well 49, you live in one.

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Hanr3
06-22-2018, 08:23 AM
IL. already has a tax for on-line sales that you pay when you file your states taxes in April. If the vendor doesn't collect and pay IL. They expect you to. Either a flat tax or percentage of sale(s). The flat tax is easy, but ain't cheap. The percentage tax is cheaper by comparison, however it's a nightmare to track and report.

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deathb4disco
06-22-2018, 08:50 AM
Good article:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/kotlikoff/2018/06/21/did-the-supreme-court-just-bankrupt-tens-of-thousands-of-small-online-businesses/#120e64c027aa

Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 09:16 AM
Here in TN we have a state sales tax of around 10%. We do not have a state income tax. Amazon has lot of fullfillment centers here in TN and I am pretty sure they do not have to pay state sales tax.

They collect sales tax on all items shipped from TN warehouses. I pay taxes on some things, some things not.

2boatjoe
06-22-2018, 09:19 AM
Amazon does not charge tax on third party items. Things they do not own just ship. If they own it and are selling it they charge tax on it.

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trypman1
06-22-2018, 09:20 AM
I am closing my online archery business soon, I knew it was coming. They will screw it us for sure.

Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 09:38 AM
Businesses act as collection agencies for state/fed taxes. I believe businesses still get to keep a percentage of the tax they collect. (I could be wrong.) But, it ain't much for doing all the work involved and the risks involved.

RMGeorge
06-22-2018, 09:50 AM
I would think it wouldn't take long for software to become available to small online retailers that would make the collection of the taxes easier. Of course there's no telling what the software would cost.

2boatjoe
06-22-2018, 10:35 AM
I'm sure some of the bigger software companies have something already made up they saw this coming and the first to have it will make more money.

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deathb4disco
06-22-2018, 11:13 AM
Chief Justice Roberts writes in the dissenting opinion:

"The burden will fall disproportionately on small businesses. One vitalizing effect of the Internet has been connecting small, even “micro” businesses to potential buyers across the Nation. People starting a business selling their embroidered pillowcases or carved decoys can offer their wares throughout the country—but probably not if they have to figure out the tax due on every sale. See Sales Taxes Report 22 (indicating that “costs will likely increase the most for businesses that do not have established legal teams, software systems, or outside counsel to assist with compliance related questions”). And the software said to facilitate compliance is still in its infancy, and its capabilities and expense are subject to debate. See Etsy Brief 17–19 (describing the inadequacies of such software); eBay Brief 8–12 (same); Sales Taxes Report 16–20 (concluding that businesses will incur “high” compliance costs). The Court’s decision today will surely have the effect of dampening opportunities for commerce in a broad range of new markets."

https://hotair.com/archives/2018/06/21/scotus-get-ready-pay-sales-tax-internet/

Slab
06-22-2018, 11:28 AM
Businesses act as collection agencies for state/fed taxes. I believe businesses still get to keep a percentage of the tax they collect. (I could be wrong.) But, it ain't much for doing all the work involved and the risks involved.Ha, ha.. We get to keep some of the tax we take. If so, it's news to me.

And it's not just 50 states, it's 10,000 jurisdictions. Some counties add surcharges (additional taxes). This is exemplified here in FL, Florida sales tax on retail purchases is 6%, Lake County (the county I live in) charges an additional 1%. So I have to charge 7% tax on all FL Purchases. And, as opposed to CP comment, I keep none of it! lol

As a side note too, even for 3rd party products, Amazon takes the taxes. So the good news is, if I sell through Amazon, I don't have to worry about the taxes, they collect and send it all in for me. The end result for me is, I may only be able to sell through Amazon. I prolly will not be able to keep up with collecting and paying out based on 10,000 different jurisdictions tax laws. The postage alone would put me out of business). Yeah I know, can prolly pay online, but even trying to pay 50 states online would be hard enough to put me out of business. I already do it for Florida, and the guberment has the worst websites ever. I have to do it quarterly, and it takes a while to get through their BS. They are backwards. One time I had one of them on the phone and I asked if I could get, or reset, my password, because there was no procedure to do it online. She told me my password. They are so stupid they are storing everyone's password in clear text. Even here on Crappie.com I can not read passwords at all, they are stored encrypted in the data base. I can reset it, but I never know what your real password is.

Anyway, this is gonna be a disaster if small businesses have to manage the sales tax in 10,000 (or even 50) places across the country. The guberment never makes it easy on us small guys! And I say this all in a non-political way. It's just how it's always been. The word efficient ain't in the Guberments language. .

Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 11:49 AM
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=42508324&nid=148

Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 11:50 AM
CNN stated Amazon will collect taxes on all sales.

Slab
06-22-2018, 11:56 AM
https://www.ksl.com/?sid=42508324&nid=148Well golly! Didn't know that stuff, but then again, I don't live in Utah. Florida don't give me nutin' honey!

Now you see why I said, Cane Pole for president! He knows it all. Hope Google don't hire him away. We need him right here. I heard the next version of Alexa is gonna use Cane Poles voice.

2boatjoe
06-22-2018, 12:15 PM
Sounds to me like companies such as Amazon are the only ones that will benefit from this putting so many other companies out of business. Maybe PayPal will step up and do something for the little guy as a huge chunk of there business comes from them.

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Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 12:26 PM
Sounds to me like companies such as Amazon are the only ones that will benefit from this putting so many other companies out of business. Maybe PayPal will step up and do something for the little guy as a huge chunk of there business comes from them.

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Let's hope so. Ir not, it is back to the flea market table.

Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 12:32 PM
I believe the states are so honest that they will reduce the sales tax rates when all this extra revenue rolls in. Sounds good to me. May have to get my protest sign repainted though.

2boatjoe
06-22-2018, 12:33 PM
Now if you sell home made items as used do you have to charge tax on them?

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Cane Pole
06-22-2018, 12:48 PM
Tax on used items is a money racket for the revenuers. Cars usually sell n average 7 times over it lifespan. Read this in popular mechanics mag.

deltarat
06-22-2018, 01:00 PM
If they are going to tax those products, they should just charge the rate of the jurisdiction that the seller lives in and not have the hassle of 10,000 different rates. I guess simple is not the government way.

ESBguy
06-22-2018, 07:35 PM
After several hours of research, it looks like I'll be OK. For a few weeks, anyway.

5 states have no sales tax. I expect that to change, fast, regarding internet sales.

Many states have so called "nexus" rules, meaning you must have some sort of tangible presence in them to be liable for collecting sales tax. This can be as little as a paid click through agreement with a website based in that state. Again, I expect this to change quickly.

Many states also have "Amazon" rules, requiring minimum annual sales to trigger sales tax liability. For states that have this rule, 10k is the most common amount. On the high end is S. Dakota at 100k. On the low end, Connecticut at 2k. Minnesota has a 10k minimum, but also 100 sales will do it. I expect these also to change, rapidly.

Regardless, SCOTUS handed the keys to the bank to the states, and you know they're going to run with it.

I predict many small online sellers will simply give up. Others may take a "come and get me" attitude. Congress may (doubtful) act. My bobber site is 20 years old this year - yeah, I know, it looks it. I think these last 20 years will be remembered as the only time in human history that you could be a global concern from your home computer. And I find that very sad.

jbird68
06-22-2018, 07:44 PM
Well I hope you stick around. I just bought a half-dozen #2's. I don't buy a lot but they are the best. Just don't spill gas on them. They will shrivel up.
After several hours of research, it looks like I'll be OK. For a few weeks, anyway.

5 states have no sales tax. I expect that to change, fast, regarding internet sales.

Many states have so called "nexus" rules, meaning you must have some sort of tangible presence in them to be liable for collecting sales tax. This can be as little as a paid click through agreement with a website based in that state. Again, I expect this to change quickly.

Many states also have "Amazon" rules, requiring minimum annual sales to trigger sales tax liability. For states that have this rule, 10k is the most common amount. On the high end is S. Dakota at 100k. On the low end, Connecticut at 2k. Minnesota has a 10k minimum, but also 100 sales will do it. I expect these also to change, rapidly.

Regardless, SCOTUS handed the keys to the bank to the states, and you know they're going to run with it.

I predict many small online sellers will simply give up. Others may take a "come and get me" attitude. Congress may (doubtful) act. My bobber site is 20 years old this year - yeah, I know, it looks it. I think these last 20 years will be remembered as the only time in human history that you could be a global concern from your home computer. And I find that very sad.

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ESBguy
06-22-2018, 08:14 PM
Thanks, J (again). And gas is death to all polystyrene. Pour some into a cup, but stay out of the way :)

jbird68
06-22-2018, 08:19 PM
I had a Primer bulb expand in direct sunlight. Sprung a leak and sprayed gas all over my boat. Only messed up one Bobber and now some of my carpet is loose and wrinkled. Don't know how I'm going to fix that.

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lostDuck
06-23-2018, 01:26 PM
I sell on Amazon and many other sites today and have run into several Nexus issues. Amazon does not currently collect 3rd party sales tax in all states today (there are a few they do). Until Amazon does collect in all 10,000 jurisdictions the 3rd party seller continues to have liability. I use a service to monitor my sales thresholds and file for sales tax (fee + bond) in the states that I get to their limit. It adds about $5000 in expense to my bottom line today. Based on this ruling I expect it to grow to $10,000 in expenses in the next two years.

Small companies really have a few options right now. Grow, Get Dealers, or Sell.

As this gets more common i think the states will want to make it easy to collect the money (at least most). Time will tell for sure.

ET Fish
06-23-2018, 02:32 PM
If you want something totally screwed up, get the government involved.

imajigger2
06-25-2018, 05:14 PM
Lots of jumping the gun on this subject. This ruling only applies to the States not every other entity that receives tax revenue. There are only 45 States you would have to record and once each State gives you the rate with todays computers and available software it can be done now. If you are old school and keep your records in books it just means more of your time in the books. Most States already required the purchaser to own this on their State tax forms but human nature being what it is barely anyone reported it. I think it levels the playing field as Big Business will spend more than the small guy with the record keeping simply due to volume of sales. If i were a small business man i would be more worried about how often the taxes need remitted. I would ask for Bi Annual remittance that way returns could be adjusted on the second half payment. Tax is an ugly word but they are part of our economy for good or bad. As a consumer i don't see it changing my buying habits at all. The area that needs to be cleaned up is shipping and handling charges. Just my opinion.

Slab
06-25-2018, 06:03 PM
Even doing the tax for one state is not easy. I do Florida, and it's a multi part online "unfriendly" form I have to fill out quarterly. I have to calculate FL tax, and County tax, they are different. Put it all together on their unfriendly site, and pay it quarterly. Their site is unfriendly cause it's meant for everyone, big guy and small guy. And just because the guberment designed it, doh! I was late once, the $5 in tax I collected which I needed to pay them was a fraction of the $50 fine I had to pay because I was exactly a half hour late (I'm serious, this happened to me). All I can say, is it's gonna be a PITA for small guys like me. I'm not looking forward to it. And fine, there may be software, but don't get me started on how much Quickbooks already costs me per year. Just a ripoff for doing literally nothing but formatting junk for guberment consumption.

thinkingredneck
06-26-2018, 06:21 PM
This will likely force a lot of guys to go through Etsy, amazon, or someone like that.