PDA

View Full Version : What happens before a fish bites a lure? This involves knowing why fish bite lures.



Spoonminnow
07-20-2015, 10:05 AM
First off, fish don't know anything but they sense everything.

If you've ever studied fish biology, fish senses would be the first thing to capture your attention because they are so much different than that of land animals. Vision is and vibration/pressure wave detection are highly tuned to a water environment via the eye, lateral line and ear. Many articles have been written why fish bite lures, many insisting hunger or feeding the main reason. I'm going to suggest another reason:

contrast

For years is was assumed that a lure was a simulation of a prey animal found in nature. Anything from a Mepps spinner to a Beetle Spin was counted on to represent a fish or a worm or a grub, etc. The problem with that idea is that fish have no ability to categorize different animals much less name them. Their brains are nothing more than conduits connecting their sense organs to their muscles opting to go after anything that provokes them.

Do fish instinctively know a real minnow from a fake look-a-like? I believe they somehow sense when something is the real thing - I have no idea how. On the other hand, most crappie and fish in general have never seen fishing lures and have no frame of reference to suggest a spinner is a minnow or a plastic grub is a grub. Ice fishermen know that live bait left in place will always get far more fish than a stationary artificial grub regardless of scent added.

If fish have no clue what a lure is or that it even lives and breathes, the only thing I can think of is the possibility that since artificial lures don't act real, they still strike a nerve (no pun intended) leading to an attack. If so, what is it about lures that get fish to bite?

Every lure emits its own set of sense-detection characteristics whether they be sight or sound. Prey animals don't move or sound like the majority of lures we use. Being sight feeders fish can see lures, whether muted or bright that contrast against any background. Color outlines shape and indicates size, but more importantly contributes to the visualization of a lure's action. Even if fish had no sense of vibration detection, they could still track and attack an object that has no correlation to anything a fish feeds on.

Motion detection is a blessing to an angler using lures in that lure motions are strange to a fish. Lure speed and lure action speed (vibration, shimmy, etc.) along with color are key to getting a fish's attention, forcing its tiny brain into the track & attack sequence which will be hopefully unbroken until we hold that fish. The sequence starts with getting a fish's attention and then using a presentation and lure that holds its attention long enough (like lighting a fuse) until it is provoked uncontrollably into striking. It's like someone sticking you with a needle - your reaction is involuntary and angry at the same time, no different than a fish's once it makes its move to destroy an object it has no idea of its nature. Push the right buttons and it can't help itself - sometimes even attacking a lure multiple times on the same retrieve.

The key is to consider the many contributions on Crappie.com that indicate why some anglers have great luck using certain lures and presentations in combination that almost always catch fish. I have my pet combos based on unnatural contrasts of lure color, flash, motion, vibration, speed variations, speed in general, shapes and sizes. One or all account for my success and the fact that fish don't know anything but they sense everything.

Thanks for reading and for considering the possibility that the above can help you catch more fish by searching and fine tuning your lure selection and presentation.

genec
07-20-2015, 03:55 PM
ALSO U HAVE CUROSITY NOT HAVING HANDS TO PICK UP OR FEEL THEY USE THEIR MOUTH, ALSO REACTION STRIKE,AND A CRITER THAT IS EATABLE EVEN IF HE HAS NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE IT BEFORE, ALSO IN THEIR STATE OUT SPOT,ALSO PROTECTING BED,ALSO BECAUSE HIS FRIENDS ARE ATTACKING BAIT, MANY,MANY REASON WHY A FISH BITES,BUT THE BEST THING IS THEY BITE AND THATS WHERE MY BAIT COMES IN,LOL

crappiewisdom
07-20-2015, 05:02 PM
My question...why DON'T they bite? Even after you think you have all the bases covered and have presented everything in front of them they could want.

Cane Pole
07-20-2015, 05:14 PM
Fishing is all about luck. This is a well know fact.

Everyone always asks me: You have any "luck"? No one ever asks me: You have any "fish instincts"?

Crestliner08
07-20-2015, 06:16 PM
I believe luck plays a very small role in the percentage of your success on any given day. Some days you just don't feel like a lot of effort in doing those things that you really know will put the odds in your favor. Sometimes you do. But what do I know. :)

DockShootinJack
07-20-2015, 08:26 PM
Makes sense.

Spoonminnow
07-20-2015, 09:18 PM
Depending on luck is not for those that have certain bases covered, namely hitting high potential areas and depths. The next option to be considered is the combination of lure and presentation. Location, lure and presentation choices may be wrong on some days - there is no guarantee an angler can find fish to provoke. But if an angler considers simplifying lure choice and matches a presentation to go with it, the search may better discover fish that others pass by always taking into account that lures affect presentation and presentation and line affect lure action. Find the right lure action and you'll have a better chance of unlocking that jaw that hasn't opened in the recent past.

Again, there are no guarantees in fishing but there are better choices to consider which separate anglers into those that catch and those that wish they could without depending primarily on luck. On some days many lure designs and colors work; on other days, the best selection is limited to a few; yet on other days nothing works. All the topic is trying to get across is that if you dial in a lure action that works, use it in other areas in the lake.

Answer this question if you can:
Have you been on the same boat with someone who did far better or worse catching fish than you once fish were found? If one angler catches 20 in 10 minutes and the other only a few, is one just unlucky, especially if both are using the same lure ? I've been on both sides and sometimes don't have a clue why it happens but most of the time figure it out.

Cane Pole
07-20-2015, 09:28 PM
Well, again, why do folks always ask if I had any luck if it doesn't play a major role in fishing?

CrappiePappy
07-21-2015, 02:10 AM
Well, again, why do folks always ask if I had any luck if it doesn't play a major role in fishing?


What they should be asking is "are you having any SUCCESS" ... they may not be skilled or experienced or informed enough to feel that they would be, or were, successful in catching fish, so they sum it up as "luck" if they do & project that towards others to place them in the same category (not good, just lucky) in order to find common ground. :twocents

... cp :kewl

Spoonminnow
07-21-2015, 09:01 AM
What they should be asking is "are you having any SUCCESS" ... they may not be skilled or experienced or informed enough to feel that they would be, or were, successful in catching fish, so they sum it up as "luck" if they do & project that towards others to place them in the same category (not good, just lucky) in order to find common ground. :twocents

... cp :kewl

Exactly!

Those who depend on luck have never understood the nuances of fishing nor the selectivity of fish that can change from season to season, day to day, lake to lake. They use the same thing, the same way every time they go out and hope fish will bite. For example, I took out a friend on my boat who did very well in the past on Little Joe Shad minnows with boot tail. I was killing them on my creation and finally he took me up on the offer to change.The reason mine was working was the difference in tail action, jig head weight and slower horizontal lure speed in shallow water. The boot tail affected the other two factors and those factors are the nuances of tackle and presentation selection that can make all the difference on any given day and make searching more or less productive.

"Any Luck?" They may as well ask, "did you change your underwear today?" :scratchhead
My response, "yea, but only after I boated that 14" crappie!" :yikes

INTIMIDATOR
07-21-2015, 11:53 AM
I have a couple research threads on the Ohio forum "CJ Water Temps" thread....
Your overall reaction bite theory plays out well, but alot more goes into why a fish bites.
CRAPPIE has fabulous eyesight, they can see micro-orgaisms and feed upon them, they do see in color in the day and HD black and white at night.
They will feed specifically on certain food patterns, that's why matching the hatch comes into play.
In some lakes, colors change and mute...the color you see and like will look different to a fish...gin clear water effects colors also.
Spinners and blades, reflect light and vibrations like baitfish, all baitfish create disturbances in the water...big or small.
Fish can tell size, distance, speed, etc,, from lateral lines....they can see and relate shapes, sizes, patterns, etc....they smell and can tell differences....same with taste. They are far from stupid...they are highly evolved predators.

Our jobs, are to pattern what's going on, find them, understand temps, water color, etc., match the hatch or make them react, choose the right lure, color, and technique, to get them to bite. :):):)

Cmj
07-21-2015, 12:27 PM
I have a couple research threads on the Ohio forum "CJ Water Temps" thread....

Your overall reaction bite theory plays out well, but alot more goes into why a fish bites.

CRAPPIE has fabulous eyesight, they can see micro-orgaisms and feed upon them, they do see in color in the day and HD black and white at night.

They will feed specifically on certain food patterns, that's why matching the hatch comes into play.

In some lakes, colors change and mute...the color you see and like will look different to a fish...gin clear water effects colors also.

Spinners and blades, reflect light and vibrations like baitfish, all baitfish create disturbances in the water...big or small.

Fish can tell size, distance, speed, etc,, from lateral lines....they can see and relate shapes, sizes, patterns, etc....they smell and can tell differences....same with taste. They are far from stupid...they are highly evolved predators.



Our jobs, are to pattern what's going on, find them, understand temps, water color, etc., match the hatch or make them react, choose the right lure, color, and technique, to get them to bite. :):):)


Makes sense.

huntinslabs
07-21-2015, 12:38 PM
They says I'm hungry, and my Roadrunner rings their dinner bell.

Cane Pole
07-21-2015, 01:34 PM
Are you all calling my friends ignorant or incapable?

Spoonminnow
07-21-2015, 03:48 PM
I can use the same exact lure design, same color and catch fish all year round and I'm talking all species. Regardless of whether crappie are hitting white perch, minnows or small yellow perch, they still hit the same color without fail.

Today the surface water temp was 84.5 degrees and crappie, bass, sunfish and yellow perch hit the lure pictured below from the time when I got on the water at 12:30 pm until 4 pm.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j36/senkosam/Fishing/Spoon%20Minnow%20tail%20and%20dipped%20creations/favorite%20color_zpsudr5kkes.jpg~original (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/senkosam/media/Fishing/Spoon%20Minnow%20tail%20and%20dipped%20creations/favorite%20color_zpsudr5kkes.jpg.html)

One could imagine it looks like one species or other, but the color was not important. What was important was a finesse tail action, jighead size, lure length (2 1/4" was just right, 2 3/4" got far fewer hits) and believe it or not, the number of reel handle turns per minute. Too fast/ few bites; to slow and the lure was too close to the bottom in 8-13'. An erratic turn of the handle was also crucial - a steady retrieve would not have cut it! The strikes were hard at times and at other times it felt like I had caught weeds, causing me to increase the rate of line taken in and raising the rod tip high. Most times fish had the lure in the areas I knew had few weeds.

None of my success had anything to do with matching anything or patterning fish according to where forage was or which forage they may have been feeding on - if any of the 60 plus fish I caught were even feeding. I worked an area in the deeper south end of the lake, 70 yards X 70 yards and had action almost every minute, catching the largest and smallest fish the lake had to offer.

The only thing I agree with is fish physiology (taken from Knowing Bass by Keith Jones); the rest is to sell lures and give fish and intelligence and bait selectivity, based on guessing a prey species, they don't possess. My way is proven on different waters; matching adds a useless, confusing step that will prove wrong more often than right and only allows one to imagine fish hit because they thought the lure was a live whatever.

The difference between the study and my topic content was how fish use their senses to detect, track and then be provoked by using a nuanced approach that takes into consideration technical aspects of tackle and presentation (technique). To say one should go as natural as possible when using lures means nothing because most lures fish bite are not natural simulations in any way shape or form and as was said about fish ignoring line and hooks, just another fact that disagrees with how close a fish views the details of a lure and thinks about what it's seeing, smelling or feeling (lateral line).

Fish don't think, they simply react.

INTIMIDATOR
07-21-2015, 04:31 PM
I can use the same exact lure design, same color and catch fish all year round and I'm talking all species. Regardless of whether crappie are hitting white perch, minnows or small yellow perch, they still hit the same color without fail.

Today the surface water temp was 84.5 degrees and crappie, bass, sunfish and yellow perch hit the lure pictured below from the time when I got on the water at 12:30 pm until 4 pm.

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j36/senkosam/Fishing/Spoon%20Minnow%20tail%20and%20dipped%20creations/favorite%20color_zpsudr5kkes.jpg~original (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/senkosam/media/Fishing/Spoon%20Minnow%20tail%20and%20dipped%20creations/favorite%20color_zpsudr5kkes.jpg.html)

One could imagine it looks like one species or other, but the color was not important. What was important was jighead size, lure length (2 1/4 was just right, 2 3/4 got far fewer hits) and believe it or not, the number of reel handle turns per minute. Too fast / few bites; to slow and the lure was too close to the bottom in 8-13'. An erratic turn of the handle was also crucial - a steady retrieve would not have cut it. The strikes were hard at times and at other times it felt like I had caught weeds, causing me to increase the rate of line taken in and raising the rod tip high. Most times fish had the lure.

None of that had anything to do with matching anything or patterning fish according to where forage was or which forage they may have been feeding on - if they were even feeding. I worked an area in the deeper south end of the lake 70 yards X 70 yards and had action almost every minute, catching the largest and smallest fish the lake had to offer.

The only thing I agree with is fish physiology (taken from Knowing Bass by Keith Jones); the rest is to sell lures and give fish and intelligence and bait selectivity, based on prey species, they don't possess. My way is proven on different waters; matching adds a useless, confusing step that will prove wrong more often than right and only allows one to imagine fish hit because they thought the lure was a live whatever.

The difference between the study and my topic content was how fish use their senses to detect, track and then be provoked by using a nuanced approach that takes into consideration technical aspects of tackle and presentation.
To say one should go as natural as possible when using lures means nothing because most lures fish bite are not natural simulations in any way shape or form and was was said about fish ignoring line and hooks, just another fact that disagrees with how close a fish views the details of a lure or thinks about what it's seeing, smelling or feeling (lateral line).

By varying your retrieve etc, you have caused a reaction bite...that is only one type of bite that fish have been shown to posses.
Like you, I normally only use 3 inch swimbaits or craws for all of my fishing all year long...I will downsize swimbaits for colder water and change techniques.
Research has proven they will take one food over another, when Mayflies hatch, that is all they will eat...period! If you adjust to Mayfly colors, you will catch fish.
Some fish only see in Black and white, some see in full color, all baitfish have a gold iridescence, some green colors turn gray in certain water colors....your baits can look like a certain minnow in your water system.
I will changed colors at my lake according to sunlight, clouds, water conditions, what fish are feeding on, etc! Then you have to determine the technique of presentation that they want,...different jig head sizes to keep the lure in the strike zone....sometimes presentation has to be slow and erratic, sometimes fast and constant, sometimes bottom bouncing, or stop start and dying....it all factors in!
Knowing your species and home lake makes all of this possible and easy to accomplish.
ALOT of research has gone into fish senses...a lot of good reading out there!

Cmj
07-21-2015, 04:50 PM
Man, I guess everything I have learned and deduced over the years has been WRONG!! Too bad the fish are too stupid to know it!

Tony the Tiger
07-21-2015, 05:37 PM
Boy Howdey, this is too deep for me. :dono

RCC
07-21-2015, 06:07 PM
Man, I guess everything I have learned and deduced over the years has been WRONG!! Too bad the fish are too stupid to know it!

Here's my take on this, probably also wrong. Fish only do a few things in their lifetime. They eat. They try to stay comfortable. They spawn. They cannot go to Walmart and buy food, so they eat whenever they can, as much as they can. This happens everyday, high pressure, low pressure, snow, sleet, hail, summer heat makes no difference, they will eat if something is put on their nose that looks like food to them. One of the most important aspects to crappie fishing is finding the crappie nose. Because they like to stay comfortable, that helps us fisherman to know where to look for the crappie nose at different times of the year, at different depths, or perhaps holding close to structure to find shade, or even perhaps coming to the top to sun in the winter time depending on water temps. Luck does have lots to do with fishing, but bad luck plays as important of a roll in your fishing as good luck does. You give yourself an edge by arming yourself with the knowledge of what the crappie may be eating at that time of year and where the crappie will be the most comfortable, and knowing that if you make a good presentation of your bait on the crappies nose, he will eat it....every time. Lots of other factors play into this as well such as stealth or shadowing. If you are noisy, or shadow your targeted fish, your target may then think that he is to be lunch rather than have lunch. If that happens, you're gonna have some "bad luck". This stuff ain't rocket science. If it was, I only know of one person on this board who could catch a fish.

scrat
07-21-2015, 06:27 PM
Now I know why I don't catch a lot of fish. I am only catching the dumb blonde ones.:Rofl

Cane Pole
07-21-2015, 06:40 PM
I than my lucky stars. I do also know for fact that the more I fish, the luckier I git.

Cane Pole
07-21-2015, 06:47 PM
I than my lucky stars. I do also know for fact that the more I fish, the luckier I git.

Luck is why the fish bite my lures. Nothing else matters.

Talking to myself helps too. But, not like lucky lures.

Tracker123
07-21-2015, 07:30 PM
Luck is why the fish bite my lures. Nothing else matters. Talking to myself helps too.

Talking to yourself is good, I do it regular. Someone on the Louisiana forum told me it's a good way to have an intelligent conversation.

Cmj
07-21-2015, 07:57 PM
This stuff ain't rocket science. If it was, I only know of one person on this board who could catch a fish.



Well, that's the guy I need to take a trip with! Actually, I'm pretty sure I've fished with him a time or two.

Spoonminnow
07-21-2015, 09:04 PM
By varying your retrieve etc, you have caused a reaction bite...that is only one type of bite that fish have been shown to posses.

Call the strike what you will, but ask yourself what caused the reaction (not reflex) strike, especially when the fish hit the lure again on the second or third retrieve giving me another chance to hook it (happened many times today).

Reaction strikes I call provocation strikes because something has to provoke a fish to strike an object it hasn't a clue what it is. But for argument's sake, if the lure shown fooled fish into believing it was a minnow and the lure catches many species all year round (even under the ice), does it really matter what fish are eating at the moment? Today I saw a fish snap at a bug on the surface, cast my lure and then caught the fish immediately. Was the plastic minnow desert or the main meal? Did lure color matter for any of the many fish caught today?

The line:

they will eat if something is put on their nose that looks like food to them )

Sure, but what the lure does as it goes past its head can make all the difference in getting it excited enough to strike. Other than reflex strikes (almost dropping a lure into its open mouth), strikes of provocation get a fish excited (for whatever reason you want to believe) and that excited state is contagious among nearby fish (watch a YouTube video of a school of yellow perch).

Excited states last for many seconds and many times provide multiple hits on more than one cast; reflex strikes last one second, defined as such by no hit on a second cast. After I get the lure "close to their noses", I always want the reaction to my lure, as much as possible, to be one of excitation and to get it I will always assume fish are not actively feeding.

BTW: Curl tail grubs were far less successful today than the straight tail lure shown.

Cmj
07-21-2015, 09:56 PM
Well, that's the guy I need to take a trip with! Actually, I'm pretty sure I've fished with him a time or two.


Ohhhhhh, I get it now! Ima little slooowwww!

INTIMIDATOR
07-21-2015, 10:08 PM
Call the strike what you will, but ask yourself what caused the reaction (not reflex) strike, especially when the fish hit the lure again on the second or third retrieve giving me another chance to hook it (happened many times today).

Reaction strikes I call provocation strikes because something has to provoke a fish to strike an object it hasn't a clue what it is. But for argument's sake, if the lure shown fooled fish into believing it was a minnow and the lure catches many species all year round (even under the ice), does it really matter what fish are eating at the moment? Today I saw a fish snap at a bug on the surface, cast my lure and then caught the fish immediately. Was the plastic minnow desert or the main meal? Did lure color matter for any of the many fish caught today?

The line:
)

Sure, but what the lure does as it goes past its head can make all the difference in getting it excited enough to strike. Other than reflex strikes (almost dropping a lure into its open mouth), strikes of provocation get a fish excited (for whatever reason you want to believe) and that excited state is contagious among nearby fish (watch a YouTube video of a school of yellow perch).

Excited states last for many seconds and many times provide multiple hits on more than one cast; reflex strikes last one second, defined as such by no hit on a second cast. After I get the lure "close to their noses", I always want the reaction to my lure, as much as possible, to be one of excitation and to get it I will always assume fish are not actively feeding.

BTW: Curl tail grubs were far less successful today than the straight tail lure shown.

The second and third strikes are easy to explain....a predator fish will try to wound it's prey to make it easier to get into the right position to swallow and eat.
Watch a school of fish attacking baitfish...they wound them and go back to finish them off.
That is a natural reaction to make sure the predator fish does not get injured trying to ingest another fish wrong.

Feeding (excited states) do last a while...but when fish are being caught they can give off distress hormones that cause the fright/flight reaction in other fish and the bite stops.
Making your lure act out of the ordinary can trigger strikes or send them fleeing, all according to the pattern they are in. Finding the proper presentation is just 1 key, in all successful fishing trips

I am also a firm believer that you make your own luck....your knowledge of the species, lake, and everything else from weather, conditions, etc, plus techniques, and bait selection, etc, allows you to be a long term successful fisherman.

Like I said...there is alot of great research being done on fish, it is out there on the web and can help a fisherman to understand all that's going on.

Good Fishing
Brent

Spoonminnow
07-22-2015, 02:43 AM
I try not to get into the possible biological reasons they bite which seem very logical such as, "a predator fish will try to wound it's prey to make it easier to get into the right position to swallow and eat." No one could or prove or disprove that statement on an outing, so accepting it as fact is okay as long as the erratic retrieve is used when needed (which is most of the time).

A rationalization is defined as,
to invent plausible explanations for acts, opinions, etc., that are actually based on other possible causes ...those causes I wouldn't even hazard a guess of which a rationalization is in reality, minus the proof to show cause and affect as regards why fish bite artificial lures.

So to prove that specific colors and lures are needed under certain conditions, we would have to be in the same boat casting different lures in different colors; you believing it matters, me rejecting the belief. If we both caught fish, it would immediately disprove the theory (but only of course if my presentation and lures were up to the job). Many such outings would be required by us or others to confirm or disprove the theory of color and I wonder how many on Crappie.com have already done that, like myself.

As for myself, I'll stick with what works and leave the reasons why to those who may be overthinking those reasons.

Cmj
07-22-2015, 06:26 AM
.

As for myself, I'll stick with what works and leave the reasons why to those who may be overthinking those reasons.


Now, that's funny right there!

INTIMIDATOR
07-22-2015, 09:58 AM
I try not to get into the possible biological reasons they bite which seem very logical such as, "a predator fish will try to wound it's prey to make it easier to get into the right position to swallow and eat." No one could or prove or disprove that statement on an outing, so accepting it as fact is okay as long as the erratic retrieve is used when needed (which is most of the time).

A rationalization is defined as, ...those causes I wouldn't even hazard a guess of which a rationalization is in reality, minus the proof to show cause and affect as regards why fish bite artificial lures.

So to prove that specific colors and lures are needed under certain conditions, we would have to be in the same boat casting different lures in different colors; you believing it matters, me rejecting the belief. If we both caught fish, it would immediately disprove the theory (but only of course if my presentation and lures were up to the job). Many such outings would be required by us or others to confirm or disprove the theory of color and I wonder how many on Crappie.com have already done that, like myself.

As for myself, I'll stick with what works and leave the reasons why to those who may be overthinking those reasons.

There's no over-thinking those reasons...you can blindly argue whatever you want! But, there is plenty of research and testing out there about these topics, for those that want to learn and understand....it is very interesting to really get an idea what is going on...they have videos of predator fish eating, they have studies of lure design, vibration/lateral lines, colors fish can see/how they see, smell testing, etc, etc, etc, etc........

I am curious by nature, and prefer to understand why things happen....a lot of people smarter than I am, are getting paid to do all of this research for us....I just take advantage of the free extra knowledge.

Spoonminnow
07-22-2015, 01:59 PM
I've making many of my own lures for over 15 years and experimented using them on different species. From different colored spinnerbait and jig skirts to many designs of soft plastic. Using them in different waters and catching seven species of freshwater fish has revealed to me that fish simply react/ they don't think beforehand what they are reacting to. Put a lure in proximity of the strike zone and fish will attack it if the lure(s) are those they won't reject. On some days many lure designs and presentations work (spring), but on those hot summer days with the sun blazing overhead, the selection is narrowed.

That said, anglers can take away useful information from both sides of the discussion, weighing both by experience. We've all caught fish on lures we had no idea fish would strike, especially small fish. Why they struck IMO was because of a hyperactive state and one we all hope to encounter. The rest of the time certain lure elements that need be considered (lure size, amount of flash, tail action, even brands, etc.) to increase the potential they will get struck. One rule that can't be refuted is: using too large a lure of a certain design or using a lure the wrong way and all you'll get is casting practice. If your lure selection works and you believe it had something to do with the forage you guessed they were selectively feeding on, that's fine, though after the fact. If they they didn't work, it's back to square one, fine tuning lure elements and presentation.

For example, as many of you have experienced, sometimes curly tail grubs work, sometimes straight tails work much better. Also, exactly how does color correlate to a forage species when the color used that caught fish was bubblegum ? Is 1/8 oz always the best size or other jig weights at times. (Maybe it correlates with the speed prey fish are swimming?! LOL )

INTIMIDATOR
07-22-2015, 02:24 PM
I agree with what you are saying....but there are different proven bites...reactive, feeding, protection, inquisitive, etc.
You, like myself, have found baits that target many of their key receptors, or the main one during a specific pattern.
Some days I think Electric Chicken just pisses them off!:)

Spoonminnow
07-22-2015, 03:02 PM
like myself, have found baits that target many of their key receptors, or the main one during a specific pattern.

That's what I'm getting at when I started the topic! I completely agree with you that the research is valid regarding fish senses, especially those used for survival and that those senses are in use when fish track live prey or our lures. The only thing we disagree on is whether or not they have the ability to think, compare notes or correlate prey species according to some innate mental ability and at times target only those species. To suggest a Mepps spinner was hit because a fish thinks it is a minnow and because it was feeding on minnows that minute, is a bit of a reach for me. I'd rather just accept the simple fact that the pulsating flash was what it reacted to regardless of what it may have been thinking just before it struck; it was the subtle flash of metal flakes and tail action of the minnow grub posted above; it was the subtle pulsation of hair attached to a jig; etc. etc. etc. Fish senses enable fish to detect all those lure details and react, if they will, the same way a bull charges the matador behind a cape that's taunting it, not caring a sword is hidden behind it ready to end its life. I believe lures taunt a fish into striking.

This video is an example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GU_sXnfgMTU

INTIMIDATOR
07-22-2015, 07:48 PM
When Mayflies hatch at our lake you better have the same color combo or make your lure look like a nymph...I don't care what you throw, if it doesn't resemble a Mayfly, you are going home empty. Same when the craws come out for the first time, or the newly hatched shad fry hit 2 inches. Any other time when they aren't keyed in on a specific prey, I agree, you are getting reaction bites to a specific key!

Now I'm on to Sharknado 3!:)

Spoonminnow
07-22-2015, 11:32 PM
A relative that fishes salt water in Fl. said pretty much the same thing as regards using live bait. You must use what the fish are feeding on or forget it. I asked him if he had used any artificial lures that didn't match for the same fish while a bite was on and he said no and wouldn't discount that they might have worked regardless. I guess the waters I fish must be the exception to the rule or the only lures they always seem to bite resemble minnows.

Spoonminnow
07-24-2015, 03:27 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egoiPrvny5M
Another good video of perch turning on and another example of how dumb fish are.
1. spoon and hook obvious and ignored
2. dead minnow
3. excited by lure motion, otherwise most likely will not strike an inanimate object

scrat
07-24-2015, 11:05 AM
Question do fish almost always bite at the head of the bait(minnow,etc.) as the above video was showing them? I have noticed the eyes sucked out of a lot of minnows while fishing even when not feeling the fish bite.

INTIMIDATOR
07-24-2015, 11:22 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egoiPrvny5M
Another good video of perch turning on and another example of how dumb fish are.
1. spoon and hook obvious and ignored
2. dead minnow
3. excited by lure motion, otherwise most likely will not strike an inanimate object

I have pics on the CJ thread where Crappie (at spawn) were hitting a piece of plastic and paper from a hook package, on a bare jighead...just to prove to people at times they will hit anything....at other times they are keyed in on certain prey.

INTIMIDATOR
07-24-2015, 11:28 AM
Question do fish almost always bite at the head of the bait(minnow,etc.) as the above video was showing them? I have noticed the eyes sucked out of a lot of minnows while fishing even when not feeling the fish bite.

There are videos showing fish feeding...minnows and other soft rayed prey are swallowed easily if small. Large prey or rayed fish go down head first, like a bird swallows.
Since they are stupid, I don't know how they know the difference??:)lol

INTIMIDATOR
07-24-2015, 11:40 AM
Wikipedia has a section on "fish intelligence" that is easy to read and has all the studies that were done....then if interested you can dig into the good stuff with all the specific species research on behavior, intelligence, etc.

Cane Pole
07-24-2015, 04:49 PM
I believe in luck. I doubt many folks here have caught any more fish that I have over the years. I don't care which end goes in the the fishes mouth. Me and ol Billbob fight to get the dead minners. Live minners flop too much and are hard to hook. He and I have no problems catching fishes on dead minners. Dead minners don't care which end we stick the hook in. This is my story and I am sticking to it.

The trick to fishing is finding them. All knowledge is useless unless u find them. I have a fish hound in my boat. It gits right on the trail just bout every time out.

Spoonminnow
07-24-2015, 10:13 PM
For me the only time luck counts is the time it takes to find fish that will bite. If I'm lucky, it will take an hour or two; if not lucky, more time. Luckily (no pun intended), I know the waters I fish, their seasonal patterns, depth ranges, lure to search for fish and a presentation that get bit more often than not.

If I'm fishing a water for the first time without any idea of the above, luck is most certainly a factor.

Today I fished a water I'm still learning about after 40 years and knew which species to expect in different parts of the lake. Over 50 fish caught in different depths ranging from 5.5'-14', water temp. a hot 83 degrees and calm sunny weather. Too an hour to scour one shore, caught a few and then went to higher percentage areas I knew held fish since a day ago.

Luck and Luck Charms go together.

Spoonminnow
07-24-2015, 10:18 PM
Wikipedia has a section on "fish intelligence" that is easy to read and has all the studies that were done....then if interested you can dig into the good stuff with all the specific species research on behavior, intelligence, etc.

I tend to stay away from sites that document lab results and would rather let my lure do the talking in the wild.

INTIMIDATOR
07-25-2015, 12:38 PM
I tend to stay away from sites that document lab results and would rather let my lure do the talking in the wild.

Your original post states that "fish don't know anything, but sense everything"....we'll you are right about the sensing, but pretty closed minded about their natural instincts, learning, etc. I guess it goes to the point you were trying to make, but you continue to discount anything else....
Studies and reaseach start in the lab for study insight, to see if it is feesable, and for cost control, then it moves to the wild to be proven in their natural environment.
There is plenty of research and testing to substantiate and back my claims...just type it in the old interweb.

Good fishing.

Cane Pole
07-25-2015, 12:45 PM
There is hope for you. Good Luck matters.

Spoonminnow
07-25-2015, 02:22 PM
http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j36/senkosam/Fishing/Spoon%20Minnow%20tail%20and%20dipped%20creations/green%20blotch%20minnow_zpsfeccdozj.jpg~original (http://s76.photobucket.com/user/senkosam/media/Fishing/Spoon%20Minnow%20tail%20and%20dipped%20creations/green%20blotch%20minnow_zpsfeccdozj.jpg.html)

As long as I can keep on catching bunches of fish on the above lure anytime of year, I don't care what they think, process, remember, compare, catalog or might prefer regarding a prey species. Research has not explained why fish will bite one lure most times and other lures less or not at all. Lures they bite repeatedly (as in my pond), you would think they'd remember to avoid but never do. To suggest fish have intelligence is not worth giving credence to when it comes to lure choice. Knowing when all the tackle related stuff is needed is what catch's fish and it doesn't take a research scientist in a lab to discover that - just time on the water and a truly open mind.

To repeat in simple terms everyone can understand and consider when fishing:
lure speed and type of retrieve
lure size and shape
a few preferred colors that have been proven effective anytime of year
a lure action that has proven itself under most conditions
line size
spool diameter and gear ratio
rod action
depth

If an angler wants to imagine fish preferring this or that supposed species and it's artificial simulation - great! - trout anglers swear by it. But after all that thought goes into what fish think, the above factors are essential to catching fish.
You say lures are simulations that are appreciated by a fish's capacity to think; I say optical illusions and abstractions of life are what we cast and get fish to bite based on research proven senses and a fish's aggressive nature when we push it's buttons. The fact that they are natural bullies and territorial helps, but the fact remains that when fish track and bite, they are no different than a programmed missile mindlessly tracking and destroying its target.

I always like it when the discussion is carried to its final conclusion regardless of replies. It allows me to think of and convey more related ideas supportive of my claims and better clarify my position to those that are interested and see the logic. Anglers who've read all of this might find it very helpful and useful when fishing and opt to believe one way or the other over time and many excursions.

Again, all of this is just one angler's personal opinion based on experience, experimentation and the accumulation of decades of observations that confirm or disavow the positions posted.

Keep an open mind; to not do so will cost you fish!

Frank

Cane Pole
07-25-2015, 02:26 PM
Good luck matters.:tongue

Spoonminnow
07-25-2015, 02:56 PM
Good luck matters.:tongue

Sefinition of luck: success or failure apparently brought by chance rather than through one's own actions.

I'll bet your lure choices and everything else mentioned put the odds in you favor. Call it luck, I call it skill based on your ability to avoid superstitious beliefs regarding lure choice and your ability to pattern fish better than most. Catching the biggest fish of the day is mostly luck IMO given that two anglers in the same boat are equally skilled; catching the most fish is based on a skill based on knowledge. Fishing and hunting guides make a living depending on their skill and knowledge of their prey.

If not, luck is all ya got! Sorry.

Cane Pole
07-25-2015, 03:20 PM
That word is not in my farmers almanac. Therefore it is deemed insignificant.

You can't beat my luck.

Napoleon said that he had rather have lucky generals than "good" generals. Too bad he had good generals.

Special K
07-25-2015, 03:25 PM
210191

:popcorn

Cane Pole
07-25-2015, 03:53 PM
nope.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fiShX2pTz9A

Tony the Tiger
07-25-2015, 06:20 PM
All this is way above my head but I do know that the catfish in my pond have become educated. I can throw out some fish food and have a feeding frenzy that lasts till the food is gone. I can throw a baited hook and line and catch one right off the bat but that's it. The rest disappear and will not bite the rest of the afternoon. The gills do not react that way. :dono

Spoonminnow
07-25-2015, 06:58 PM
Usually I adhere to spell check and you're right, sefinition is not a word (unless you're dyslexic) lol

(Used to play that game for hours when it first came out! Those were the days!)

Cane Pole
07-25-2015, 08:32 PM
I know most folks here on c.com are smarter than fish. There may be a few exceptions though.:dono

Hopefully by now you guys have figured out that I am justa fraying your mono.:yikes

That coulda been a word, but hey, I don't look up words. My horizons don't need any expansions.