Alright, foul hook. I gotta coupla questions for you

[Black Crow]

I started a new thread cause I didn't want to hijack Saline. I also decided to make this a thread instead of a PM incase some other fellas had some of the same questions.

In Saline's post you said a few things that raised a couple questions for me.

First:

like all production guns the 700 needs some work to accurize. I do a lot of accurizing and the 700 is the one that I will guarantee to improve the accuracy.

What do you mean by this? My 700, out-of-the-box shooting cheap Core-Lokt ammo will hold a 1 inch or so group at 100 yards. Not bad, but the pattern does deteriorate down range. So what procedures or mods would you suggest? Also, how much $$$ we talking and do these procedures need to be done by a gunsmith?

Second:

To leave you with just one note, i wouldnt own a 30-06 in any brand or model. Sample GUN!

Why is that? Why don't you like the .30-06? I been looking get a .270 WSM and selling my 06, but I am curious why you say you wouldn't own one. The .30-06 is one mean, flat-out killin round.

Third:
Last question I have has to do with the first. What do you know about muzzloaders, particularly the Thompson Center Omega in .50 cal? I just bought one and I have not yet fired it. I was reading about it though and a fellow said that it is pretty accurate out of the box, but can be made into a true blue tack driver with some adjustments. What adjustments, if any, would you recommend for a TC Omega or other muzzleloader rifle?

Thanks

[skeetbum]

Crow, I'll stick my nose in as I recently got some education on what you ask. One of the adjustments folks refer to is the fit from action to stock. It may be free floating but not fitting right where it attaches to the receiver. A barrel is not just a barrel, and all are definitely not created equal. There is a tool called a bore scope. Allows you to look inside the bore at the individual rifling lands and grooves. Savage grooves have very tiny cuts, or scratches from side to side in them. Shooting many rounds(300 plus) tends to unify the lands, as they all have minor imperfections. I have an older win model 70 in .243. Prettiest barrel I've ever seen on a production gun. Almost perfectly smooth between the lands. I've had 3 Savages, 2 in .223 and 1 in .308. Absolutely love the accu trigger. All 3 barrels were fire lapped by the guy I know at the range. This amount to shooting bullets with a super fine grit on them thru the gun, thus speeding the process of flattening out the imperfections in the bore. Turned my last .223's groups from 1" at 100yd to a cloverleaf, 5 rnds in a dime or less. A lot is the shooter and a lot is the ammo. 1" is good for factory, but tuned reloads can deliver one hole groups making 300yd accuracy much easier. I have some reloading stuff I'm gonna sell if any of y'all are interested. No junk. just fish more nowadays. Hope this doesn't confuse you, shoot me a pm if you have any questions. If I don't know I'll tell you so and try to get the right answer.

[Black Crow]

Crow, I'll stick my nose in as I recently got some education on what you ask. One of the adjustments folks refer to is the fit from action to stock. It may be free floating but not fitting right where it attaches to the receiver. A barrel is not just a barrel, and all are definitely not created equal. There is a tool called a bore scope. Allows you to look inside the bore at the individual rifling lands and grooves. Savage grooves have very tiny cuts, or scratches from side to side in them. Shooting many rounds(300 plus) tends to unify the lands, as they all have minor imperfections. I have an older win model 70 in .243. Prettiest barrel I've ever seen on a production gun. Almost perfectly smooth between the lands. I've had 3 Savages, 2 in .223 and 1 in .308. Absolutely love the accu trigger. All 3 barrels were fire lapped by the guy I know at the range. This amount to shooting bullets with a super fine grit on them thru the gun, thus speeding the process of flattening out the imperfections in the bore. Turned my last .223's groups from 1" at 100yd to a cloverleaf, 5 rnds in a dime or less. A lot is the shooter and a lot is the ammo. 1" is good for factory, but tuned reloads can deliver one hole groups making 300yd accuracy much easier. I have some reloading stuff I'm gonna sell if any of y'all are interested. No junk. just fish more nowadays. Hope this doesn't confuse you, shoot me a pm if you have any questions. If I don't know I'll tell you so and try to get the right answer.

Skeetbum, that's great advice. I'm glad you chimed in. Are you a gunsmith?

Free floating is exactly what I read about, but it is something I still do not completely understand. How do you determine if the stock and receiver are fitted properly? Are these precise, minute measurements or is this something you can determine visually?

Do you have any recommendations of gunsmiths around the Nashville area that I could take my 700 and Omega to have them inspected and possibly "free floated"? I am absolutely OCD about accuracy with my guns and bows. Now that I know I may be able to improve my rifles I would like to look into it.

I am keeping this correspondence in the thread again in case other guys want to learn more about this.

Thanks again for your advice and input.

[JusFshn]

Black Crow, foul hook is fishing on lake blackshear fishing and won't be back to a computer until late Saturday or early Sunday... I can tell you he will do a trigger job to make the trigger crisp, take any travel out and adjust down to around 4lb's or less according to your preference.. I would say he would glass bed the stock for you (which gives the action a solid foundation to bolt to.. He would then relieve the stock so it would not be putting any undue pressure on the barrel... he also has some other tricks up his sleeve too.. The man is awesome when it comes to this type of work.. If it was his gun he would probably replace the trigger with a timney trigger and start playing with reloads until it was damn near a one hole gun at 100 yards.. I known this man for 33 years and when it comes to rem 700 this is the go to guy!!!

[slipbobber]

I would like to put my 2 cents in on some of this. Black Crow the first thing you were asking about accuracy a 1 inch group at 100 yds with cheap factory ammo is great shooting, when you start stretching the yardage down range say 300 to 400 yds. many issues come into play, this where the precision tuned rifle and ammo really shine, along with abilities to read the wind and mirage, bench technique and a finely tuned trigger mean a lot. AND many, many hours of practice. I read a while back on another forum where someone was talking about the same issues and someine said "At whatever range you are going to shoot at a animal you should fire one shot in practice for every yard of that distance" meaning if you are to shoot a 300 yards you need to shoot 300 rounds in practice. How many people do that? That might be carrying things a bit far but you get the idea, practice, practice and practice some more. As for a 270 whatever if you want something new, have the money burning a hole in your pocket go for it, but it won't kill anything deader than the old '06. Only been around for a 100 years and is still the yard stick by which all others are judged. I'll get off my box now see how the replies go. Good Luck!

[JusFshn]

There is absolutely nothing wrong with a 30-06... hook has owned many of them through the years.. I think he has fun pulling the legs of them 30-06 owners out there.. We were in a hunting club together in the late 80's and by the time he was done funning with all the the guys in the club they all went and bought new rifles.. :D Thats just his way of cutting up

[skeetbum]

Crow, thanx for the kudos but I'm not a smith, just taught by a very intelligent man. Pete has done nothing for fun for over 40yrs but play with rifles. He worked for Accurate Arms powder, and is a consultant for many arms manufacturers worldwide. He even worked on the Barretts for a couple of years. When he talks, EVERYBODY shuts up and listens. I was lucky enough not to aggravate him too bad and bring him some crappie fillets from time to time, and he helped me learn. The tricks Justfsn spoke of will do what you desire. I thought I knew how to shoot til I met Pete. Now I do better, but believe me when I say that practice makes all the difference, hand loaded ammo will deliver far superior groups, and that you need to find some competitive benchrest shooters to learn what it takes to shoot as well as your rifle will deliver. My favorite is a 270, no magnum or other designation. That round will take anything you and I can afford to chase. The .243 it touted as a real flat shooter with mild recoil. It's based on a .308 case. The 270 is the bigger brother to it, based on a 30.06 case. The flight paths are almost identical out to 300yds. Based on a 100 gr bullet in the 243, and a 130 gr bullet in the 270. Light recoil, great accuracy, and a bit more horsepower than it's smaller cousin. The .06 also works well but drops more at the same distance, and usually takes a heavier bullet to perform its best. Heavier bullet usually means more recoil. But now I'm ranting so I'll step down and wish you luck in your quest for a "best friend" to hunt with for many years to come. Spend a little money and tune up your 700 and you'll part with the wife before you'll let it go.

[foul hook]

Why have an 06 when you can have a 300 Win Mag, or a 300 Weatherby Mag or a 300/ 378 Weatherby mag. or a 338/378. See where I am going with this. There is always something bigger. The 30/06 is the standard. There are people out there that would quarter me if I said anything good about the 06. Lets just let that go! Core lock ammo is not the most accurate in the world. I personally dont like them because of penetration. I want a round that will exit. Remington designed the core lock to spend all energies on empact. Just another rule of thought. The Nosler balistic ti[p, Sierra match king, Hornady V- Max , and A- Max are very accurate bullets, short and long range. The best rifle in the world wont performe without good ammo. I have a 7MM STW that I was sick over, until a friend and gunsmith told me that I was using the wrong primers. Who would have thunk it? Changed primers and took 3 inches off my group. You talking about a smiley face! I was one happy camper. The best rifles wont shoot there best with the same ammo. That is why we reload. If you are getting 1 in out of your 700 you might want to leave it alone. If it hasnt been touched a bedding and trigger job could improve it some. Ken Waters has burned more powder than any man alive testing rifles and ammo. His thoughts were that 1 1/4 was a great rifle. Now we have premium bullets and slower powders to choose from. ( Pet Loads by Ken waters) Every reloader should have a copy. He has tested everyhting and published the results not once but twice. As for the muzzle loader, if you can get the round down range leave it alone. It is almost as bad as the 30/06! If you will purchase some Federal Premium Balistic tip or Accu Bond ammo you might see a tighter group than the Rem CL . Now that we have the right ammo and the rifles are fine tuned ??????? You cant shoot a 1/4 group if you cant see the X. Not the target but the X. You must have a quality scope. Tasco , Bsa , and the other after thoughts wont cut it. No substitute for good glass. That is like having a Rolse and driving around a ugly girl. Just dont cut it!

[JusFshn]

Why have an 06 when you can have a 300 Win Mag, or a 300 Weatherby Mag or a 300/ 378 Weatherby mag. or a 338/378.

If your gonna do it you might as well do it with ATTITUDE..

I'll take the .30-378 Weatherby mag please... Bad to the bone!!!!

Weatherby .30-378:
The Big Dog
Unquestionably, the .30-378 is the big dog of midline rifle cartridges. Its huge case has the ability to hold well over 120 grains of powder, and that is a hearty appetite. This cartridge is formed when the massive .378 Weatherby parent cartridge is necked down to .30 caliber, maintaining the trademark Weatherby double-radius shoulder. The .30-378 was developed for 1,000-yard benchrest shooting, but it has its place as an ultra long-range deer cartridge. It has also proven itself as a long-range elk round; with the proper bullets, it is capable of taking any game on the North American continent.

We have found that our rifle produced far different results than what has been reported in other gun magazines. Part of that is likely due to the difference in rifles. Much of the previously published data was developed in custom rifles built for the caliber before Weatherby brought it out as a factory item. Differences in lead and throats may make much of this data suspect and unacceptable for factory-chambered rifles. Also notable is that loads which showed no pressure signs in our rifle when tested in 20-degree weather last winter (with velocities below 3,300 fps) were much too hot when shooting in 70-degree temperatures.


Most of our .30-378 shooting has been with reloads, since a limited amount of factory ammo has just came on the market in July. After experimenting with a variety of powders currently available to the handloader, we have found no truly safe handload that can deliver the factory-spec 3,450 fps with a Barnes 180-grain X-Bullet. Most of the loads we built that approached the factory velocity left the gun’s bolt difficult to open. Those that exceeded 3,500 fps were dangerously over pressure. In our Weatherby Accumark rifle, the most velocity we could safely achieve has been 3,300 to 3,350 fps, which still ain’t too shabby.

A small sample of 40 factory rounds we recently received shows the .30-378 does indeed approach 3,450 fps, depending on the gun and conditions. (Handloaders aren’t able to duplicate this performance safely because the company’s technicians have access to powders and blends of powders that are not available to the reloader.) Nonetheless, based on our testing, we believe those shooters who think they can buy a .30-378, load the rounds with light bullets, and propel them at ultra-fast velocities for deer and antelope are probably going to be disappointed. Based on the data we’ve collected so far, we think it will be difficult to get top velocities in guns with barrels shorter than 30 inches. You will also burn a lot more powder and suffer more recoil to do it.

However, this cartridge starts to come into its own with bullets heavier than 180 grains, particularly 200-grain bullets. We have a handload that uses H870 powder and a 200-grain Nosler Partition bullet. With a muzzle velocity of 3,230 fps, it averages 0.75 inch at 100 yards for three shots.

[Black Crow]

Yall sure do know a lot about guns for a bunch of fishermen :D. I truly appreciate all the advice and guidance.

Okay, I have a twist in the scenario now. I did a little more reading on free floating and it appears to me in my limited understaning, that free floating is more of a concern with wood stock guns. My Rem 700 is...synthetic. So, am I likely to have any free floating problems since the synthetic stock is not going to be affected by humidity, heat, or cold? Is there a way I can test for this?

Overall, it sounds like I need to quit being a cheap *ss and buy some decent rounds for my rifle. Actually I was planning on doing that this year and I am going to the range with a buddy Halloween weekend to re-zero my gun with either Federal Premium Vital Shok, Winchester Supreme Elite, or Remington Premiers. I just gotta decide on one.